The question of the season!
----- Original Message -----
Sent: November 17, 2005 05:45
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Moses sees god's
face and lives in the PoGP!
As we approach that season wherein we celebrate
the coming of Immanuel, Judy raises an important point. Who was that child
born to Mary?
----- Original Message -----
Sent: November 17, 2005 02:13
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Moses sees
god's face and lives in the PoGP!
Easy ... Jesus did not come to earth as God. He
took upon himself the form of a servant (Phil 2:6). He first
layed
aside the "glory" he had with the Father.
Truth is truth. No man can look at God's face and live.... You
saw
what happened to Uzzah when he tried to steady the
ark didn't you? or did you? judyt
Common sence must be used here.If God
had said" Moses met him face to face" and left it there then you would
have support for your Hypotisis but God didn't leave it there-He explained
-no man can see his face and live. No problem with that
here
DAVEH: To me it leads to a
major problem for many Christians. I can only assume that you
believe many people saw Jesus' face. Yet it seems a contradiction if
you believe Jesus was fully God, and yet people could see him and
live. How do you explain that paradox, Dean?
Dean Moore
wrote:
if Moses did not see god's "face" (as "face"
described in Exodus on Mt. Sainai, upon which God said no man could
look and live), then the statement about him enduring it is
unnecessary,
DAVEH: Just as unnecessary as it
would have been for the Bible to suggest that merely hearing the voice
of God would bring death.......
[33] Did ever people hear
the voice of God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as thou hast
heard, and live? Dt 4
cd: Then pray tell why did He only
appear as a voice in a burning bush? Your own evidence fails to
support your words. And why was Moses only allowed to see his hinder
parts? Common sence must be used here.If God had said" Moses met
him face to face" and left it there then you would have support for
your Hypotisis but God didn't leave it there-He explained -no man can
see his face and live. No problem with that here- Smith let it
there-with out explaining-big difference.
.........The
people back then had the same mistaken understanding that you seem to
have, Perry. They misunderstood their relationship to God,
assuming that God could not be seen, otherwise the person seeing (or
even hearing his voice) God would die. They could not fathom
that it was possible for man to have a direct and personal
relationship with God. The folks were even afraid to get close
to Moses after he conversed with the Lord........
[30] And
when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin
of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him. Ex
34
........It is very apparent that Moses' exchange with God
was something totally unexpected by the folks back then, due to their
errant belief that one could not see God without suffering
death.
As far as "similitude", it does not mean an
exact replica, or the thing itself. Furthermore, it refers directly to
whatever form is present. If god shows himself as a burning bush, then
his similitude is as a burning bush.
DAVEH: Huh?!?!?! Where
did you get that, Perry? Where in the Bible does
similitude suggest that? Quite the opposite.....As you will see
below, God's similitude was not a burning bush
(note vss 12 & 15). Here are three verses from Deut that
use the term similitude.......
[12] And the LORD spake unto
you out of the midst of the fire: ye hear d the voice of the words,
but saw no similitude; o nly ye heard a voice. [15] Take ye
therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of
similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto
you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: [16] Lest ye corrupt
yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude
of any figure, the likeness of male or
female,
...........Notice how verse 12 mentions hearing a
voice, but seeing no similitude. Interestingly,
verse 15 reinforces verse 12 in countering your above comment about
Moses seeing God in the burning bush by again mentioning that
God's voice was heard, but the similitude of God was not
seen at that time. IOW....Moses did see the burning bush, but
he did not see the similitude of God at that time.
Reading on to verse 16, similitude was used to warn
against creating figures in a human likeness that could be used as
objects of worship.&nb sp; Now Perry, if this does not give you a
good idea of w hat similitude means when the Bible says
Moses saw the similitude of the Lord, how do you define
it? Do you still think the burning bush represented the
similitude of God?
Besides, if the Torah is
attributed to Moses, why would he have to write another book,
repeating, and with contradiction, the Torah?
You've lost me on that one,
Perry. Care to explain what you are thinking on that one?
IF you perceive a contradiction, then perhaps your understanding of
what was said was lacking. Or alternatively, perhaps the account
is from two different perspectives, or perhaps it is not
complete. Until I know what you are specifically referring to, I
don't quite know how to answer.
We are not destined to
agree, and that is okay with me.
I think
you've missed the point, Perry. You aren't just disagreeing with
me on this.....you are d isagreeing with the Bible.
on to my
second ques tion
For what purpose? As I pointed out in
detail, LDS Scripture agreed with the Bible in the instance of Moses
seeing God. That neither LDS Scripture nor the Bible agree with
what you think happened between Moses and God pretty well
defines your position, Perry. If you don't want to agree with
the Bible that Moses saw God, there really isn't much more to
discuss. As you said....Fini.
Charles Perry
Locke wrote:
Dave,
Simply put, in Moses 1:2,
PoGP, if Moses did not see god's "face" (as "face" described in
Exodus on Mt. Sainai, upon which God said no man could look and
live), then the statement about him enduring it is unnecessary,
because we know that men can gaze upon whatever form god chooses to
present himself, and endure, except whatever he called his "face" on
Sainai. The implication in Moses 1:2 is that Moses should not have
endured viewing God, but did, thus, that he was seeing god's "face".
If moses did not see god's face in Moses 1:2, then enduring that
feat was no big deal for moses...hardly worth being called out. On
the other hand, if he was seeing god's face in Moses 1:2 and endured
it, then Moses 1:2 is contradicting scripture.
Furthermore,
if god were a man, why would he not appear as a man every time he
presents himself? Why a different form every time, but never direct
ly as a man? The use of body parts to describe his image on Sinai is
not unreasonable since these are certainly the terms Moses was
familiar with, and the ones he obviously chose to describe the
experience.
As far as "similitude", it does not mean
an exact replica, or the thing itself. Furthermore, it refers
directly to whatever form is present. If god shows himself as a
burning bush, then his similitude is as a burning bush.
Besides, if the Torah is attributed to Moses, why
would he have to write another book, repeating, and with
contradiction, the Torah?
I am done with this topic. I
have stated my position. Fini. We are not destined
to agree, and that is okay with me. Get you last shot in,
then...
on to my second question...how the mormon
god, who is "without beginning of days" is also a created being,
thus, with a finite beginning.
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Moses sees god's face and lives in
the PoGP! Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 01:08:07 -0800
*I do
know that Moses saw something, what god wanted him to see.*
DAVEH: I agree, Perry. God wanted him to
see his body, but not his face. That is why he said to
Moses......
*[23] And I will take away mine hand, and
_thou shalt see my back parts_: but my face shall not be
seen*. Ex 33
.........Do you deny that Moses saw
God's back parts? If not, then it is clearly obvious that
Moses saw God. (And if you do deny it, then it would seem
you are contradicting the Bible.) That d oes not mean he
didn't *also *see a burning bush, or pillar of fire, or column of
smoke. Sure...he saw those things too. But most
important to this discussion....Moses *literally *saw God.
If you wish to ignore that simple fact Perry, that is your
privilege. I see it as denying the word of God to do so
though. Furthermore, I can't believe there would be any
Bible believing Christian TTer who would agree with
you. Am I wrong? _*The implication in Moses
1:2 that Moses saw god's "face" and survived (endured) it. The
Bible says that is not possible.*_
That's
pure nonsense, Perry. You quoted LDS Scripture as
saying.......
/*MOS 1:2 And _he saw God face to face_, and
he talked with him, and the glory of God was upon
Moses; therefore Moses could endure his presence.*/
..........Now let me ask why this (Mos 1:2) would bother
you, and yet you apparently have no proble m with the Bible when
it says in Num 14.......
*[ 14] And they will tell it to
the inhabitants of this land: for they have heard that thou LORD
art among this people, that _thou LORD art seen face to face_, and
that thy cloud standeth over them, and that thou goest before
them, by day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in a pillar of fire
by night.*
..........If LDS Scripture tells us that Moses
/_saw God face to face_/, and the Bible tells us that the Lord has
been *_seen face to face_*....then *who *do you suppose saw the
Lord IF it was not Moses? FWIW....I do not believe
that the phrase /_saw God face to face_/ or the phrase *_seen face
to face_* literally means in either case that God's face was
seen. I have had experiences where I've stood face to face
with people, and have not actually looked at their faces, but
rather have handed them something (such as money) or received
something from them (such as a coupon) without glancing upward to
see their actual face. But....I did see their bodies , or
parts thereof.
/*none of the verses you quot ed indicated
that Moses saw this aspect of God's appearance anyway.
*/Again........that is nonsense, Perry.
I previously quoted Num 12.......
*[8] With him will I
speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches;
and _the similitude of the LORD shall he behold_: wherefore then
were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses? *
Why do you think the the term *_similitude_*
was used, Perry? How else do you suppose they would
say that Moses actually *saw *God, instead of just a burning bush,
pillar of fire or column of smoke? The term *_similitude_*
was expressly used to prevent naysayers from saying that Moses did
/not really/ see God. Even so....it is sadly obvious that
contrary to the Bible, those naysayers even today continue to
claim Moses did not see God.
_/according to the B-I-B-L-E,
neither the biblical Moses, nor ANY man, could look at the
biblical God's "fac e" and survive. yet more proof that the mormon
god is not the biblical God. /_
I never
claimed that Moses saw God's face. So why you would think
that is a contradiction boggles the mind.
*_/I don't
"still think" it contradicts the bible...I "still know" it
does./_*
The contradiction is in your mind,
Perry. And, your assumption that God cannot be seen is in
error, and non Biblical. You have been shown just a few
Biblical passages that contradict your theory, Perry. (There
are others as well, but there is little reason to discuss them
since you have rejected the obvious ones.)
I have been accused of being
stubborn in my LDS biased beliefs, Perry....but you certainly have
overshadowed me this time. It is overtly obvious that you
have no desire to understand the truth of this matter as found in
the Bible. Simply put, compared to what the Bible
explains........you are teaching the doctrine of man, and as such
it must be from Satan........do you disagree?
*How about
my second question, Dave. *
What's the point
of going on to the second question, Perry? When I show
you specific Bible passages that clearly refute your erroneous
theories, and you just continue to disbelieve the Bible.
Anything I would try to explain to you from LDS passages would be
less productive than talking to a brick.
Charles Perry
Locke wrote:
Dave wrote: After reading
more of the account of how Moses saw God, do you still think
that the account you cited in Moses 1:2 contradicts the Bible?
*I do know that Moses saw something,
what god wanted him to see.* Was it a burning bush? A glowing
mass? A pillar of fire? A column of Smoke? You see, God appeared
however he wished to appear to Moses. It appears to have been
different each time, and Moses certainly saw whatever it was
that god wanted him to see...and in the appearance on Sinai, God
certainly took a form that moses could "see". However, on Sinai
there was an aspect of this appearance upon which no man could
look and live. God called this his "face". He protected moses
from gazing upon this aspect of his appearance, so it reasonable
to believe that in future meetings Moses did not see god's
"face" or he would have died as the boble states.
_*The
implication in Moses 1:2 that Moses saw god's "face" and
survived (endured) it. The Bible says that is not po ssible.*_
And, /*none of the verses you quoted indicated that Moses saw
this aspect of God's appearance anyway. */
Maybe the
mormon moses can look at the mormon god's face (and, since you
think the mormon god is a man, he must have a literal "face")
and survive, but , _/according to the B-I-B-L-E, neither the
biblical Moses, nor ANY man, could look at the biblical God's
"face" and survive. yet more proof that the mormon god is not
the biblical God. /_
Thanks for the effort you put into
this, Dave, but *_/I don't "still think" it contradicts the
bible...I "still know" it does./_* I am sorry that your mormon
faith causes you not to be able to see this.
------------------------
*How about my second
question, Dave. I'll repeat it below so you do not have to look
it up: *
It is a mormon belief that the mormon god was
once a man (from Kolob) who was a created being (if not as a
man, at least created as a spirit). Yet, in the PoGP (one of
your standard works consisting of revelation to JS, right?) I
find the following, which appears to say that the mormon god had
no beginning ("without beginning of days"):
MOS 1:3 And
God spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the
Lord God Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am
without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this
endless?
Now, how is it that the mormon god had a
beginning, yet is "without beginning of days"?
Thank you
in advance, Dave, for taking the time to explain this to me.
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Moses sees god's face and lives
in the PoGP! Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 23:26:18 -0800
DAVEH: Since you brought up Moses below, let's
look what happened to him in Ex 33...
*[11] And the
LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his
friend. *
...............At the end of the same
chapter, the Lord tells Moses........
*[20] And he
said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see
me, and live. [21] And the LORD said, Behold, there is a
place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: [22] And it
shall come to pas s, while my glory passeth by, that I will
put thee in a c lift of the rock, and will cover thee with my
hand while I pass by: [23] And I will take away mine hand,
and _thou shalt see my back parts_: but my face shall not be
seen.*
...........*_thou shalt see my back parts_*,
and as evidence that actually happened, ch 34 explains........
*[34] But when Moses went in before the LORD to speak
with him, he took the vail off, until he came out. And he came
out, and spake unto the children of Israel that which he was
commanded. [35] And the children of Israel saw the face of
Moses, that the skin of _Moses' face shone:_ and Moses put the
vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him.
*...............That something miraculous had happened
that caused *_Moses' face_* to shine. Numbers 12
clarifies what Moses saw........
*[5] And the LORD
came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of
the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both
came forth. [6] And he said, Hear now my words: If there
be a prophet among y ou, I the LORD will make myself known
unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
_[7] My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all
mine house. [8] With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even
apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of
the LORD shall he behold:_ wherefore then were ye not afraid
to speak against my servant Moses?*
.........Notice
that he distinguishes between Moses and those of lesser
faith. And he clearly points out that Moses beheld the
*_similitude of the LORD_*.
So Perry,
would you not admit that this clearly shows that Moses saw
God? That Moses did not see God's face is of little
consequence. Moses probably never saw the bottom of
God's feet either. But....according to the Bible he
certainly saw God.
After reading more of
the account of how Moses saw God, do you still think that the
account you cited in Moses 1:2.........
/_*And he saw
God face to face, and he talked with him, and the
glory of God was upon Moses; therefore Moses could endure his
presence.*_/
..........contradicts the Bible? I
certainly don't see any contradiction, especially since the
Bible quotes the Lord as speaking *face to face* to
Moses. Are you clear on that, Perry........or do you
continue to believe it is impossible to see God?
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave,
You have made
the statement "Clearly the Bible does show that man can see
God." If it so clear, please show me so I can be clear on
this, too.
Perry
From: Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
*Why is it that mormons like you,
Dave, aren't alarmed by these contradictions?*
DAVEH: Because LDS folks like me don't
view them as contradictions, Perry. Instead,
we view *your* understanding to be in error. Clearly
the Bible does show that man can see God. If you
fail to understand that concept, then you will never
understand why LDS folks don't see it as a contradiction.
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave,
Moses cannot see
God and live in the Bible, but he can in the PoGP!
Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my
face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
/_/*MOS 1:2 And he saw God face to face, and he
talked with him, and the glory of God was
upon Moses; therefore Moses could endure his
presence.*/_/
Dave, how can this be? The
revelation to JS in the PoGP contradicts the Bible!!!
Which is correct? I have my opinion, of course! And that
is that if the moses of mormonism saw the mormon god's
face and lived, we must have a different god, for no one
can see the face of the God of the Bible and live!
I have read only the first few verses of the
book of Moses in the Pearl of Greast Price (one of the
mormon standard works consisting of revelation to JS
from god, right?), and already have found two glaring
contradictions!!! Why should I read further?
*Why is it that mormons like you, D ave, aren't
alarmed by these contradictions?*
Per ry
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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