-----Original Message-----
From: Dean Moore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 20:54:30 -0500
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Romans 1:18-32 and beyond-JD

 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:
Sent: 11/23/2005 9:42:23 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Romans 1:18-32 and beyond

Actually,  Ro 1: 18-25 is a statement of circumstances failed and , as such,  find the sinner given over to his own creation.  Homosexuality is only one of 26 sins listed   --   a list that was NOT intended to be a complete list, no doubt.   Verses 18-25 applies to back-talking parents just as much as it applies to homosexuality.   Paul has not singled out one sin  (gayness) to the exclusion of the others in the list. 
 
cd: To begin with John Romans 1 (KJV)is showing the character of those who are homosexual-v29 starts of with "Being filled..." which show it is connected to and a part of v.28  and "They..." of verse 27 is referring to v.26. It is speaking of the same group of people. The idea is that people who will go this far into darkness will have no value for any laws and this I have wittinessed-but one must try and bring them truth also which is why we preach to them. Also the word "Gayness" means goodness-are these people good?
 
Are you trying to tell me that the sin example is used consistently in this text?   OF COURSE  IT IS.   But Paul could have plugged in any of the 26 sins and made the point.  Paul is not accusing his readership of being homosexual only  in 2:1-3.   "...  you who judge practice the same things  ...(v1).   What "thingS"?   The list, my friend.   
 
Because of the truth of such passages as Heb.10:14,  we realize that we are not to be defined by our sins.   Instead, we are to consider ourselves dead to sin  (Ro 6:11) and in this consideration, allow the old man to fade while the new man becomes the motivating influence   ( Eph 4:20-24  --  yes Virginian,  the old man is still there).  
cd: Actually we are new creatures in Christ-2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ,he is a new creature: old thing are pasted away:behold all things are become new. No -Virginian-the old man is gone.The key that helps me understand the bible is if it disagrees then my understanding must change -not chose one verse and ignore the other.    So you just going to pretend that Eph 4:20-24 is not there?  Or what about I Co 3:1ff?    Or Romans 3:23?   Or the conifrmation to the SAINTS IN ROMAN that there is none who are righeous,  no not one? 
 
We are all affected by sin   (Ro 2:1) and should not forget this fact when we are filled with he desire to judge others as if we are different.   The point of the book of Romans is two-fold  (at least through chapter 8)  --   we are sinners and still dealing with sin issues AND God in Christ  saves us anyway. 
cd: There is a vast difference then judging others and judging sin-If I see a child molester molesting a child can I not say "Stop Child Molester"-would it be fair for him to say"Hey stop Judging me you are in the wrong"-this doesn't make sense to me. No- we are not still sinners-John I summit to you that you have been influenced by Calvinist teachings-which are wrong. I suggest a book entitled "The Believers Conditional Security by Daniel D. Cooper, it will really help you understand what I am saying. James 1:14" But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lusts, and enticed. v15 Then when lusts hath conceived, it bringth forth sin:and sin,when it is finished,bringeth forth death.
Sin is easily identified in the bible 1 John 3:5"...for sin is transgression of the law v. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seem him,neither known him."-we are not sinners John! v8" He that commith sin is of the devil...".v9 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin..."-In v 10 we are told how to identify a believer and a non believer. " In this the children of God are manifest,and the children of the devil. You have been taught wrong John.
I have only to look to this list to prove you wrong,  Dean.  There is no one here that is sinless.  When I speak of sin,  I do not limit myself to the definition that sin is a violation of the law and neither did John in his first letter.  .   I do not get my beliefs from books.  Not a one.   It is what the biblical text says to me that is important (to me.)  If you want to deal with the passages I gave, above,  I would be interested.   If you want ot pretend that they do not exist or are not important because you can quote scriptures that say what you perfer  --  well, then we are not going to have a discussion, are we?  
 
 
In the Romans 1:18-25 passage, the difference between "us" and "them" is seen in the "failed circumstances" mentioned, to wit:  we are given over to our individual lusts  (all temptation appeals to a lust of some kind  -  James 1:14-15)  --  preferring the sin to the savior;  we come to a point when we serve ourselves to the exclusion of God;  we have cease to honor God as God;  we have left off giving thanks to God  (acknowledging His as our provider);  turning to speculations [as opposed to being led by the Spirit].  We our sins take us to the point of these failures,  we are lost.   The scary truth of the matter is this:  all sin has this ability.    
 
If we "have all sinned and continue to fall short of His glory  (Ro 3:23) ,  this passage  (1:18-25) becomes critical  --  presenting to us boundaries , so to speak, that separate the believing sinner from the unbelieving sinner. 
cd: This is speaking about past sins not present sins. ROM 3:23"All have..."-"have" is past tense not present. 1 Cor 6:9-11 is speaking about those whom will not enter the kingdom of heaven and goes on in v.11 And such were some of you... Past tense. I leave you with this for your help-1 Cor 9:27 "But I keep under my body, and bring it under subjection: lest by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." This is ST. Paul speaking John-Something is wrong with what you teach-get the book I mentioned. Yours in Christ Dean Moore.
 
Jd
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Lance Muir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]com>
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 05:30:48 -0500
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Emailing: NIV.htm

Thanks David. As I suspected, no illustrations. 
 

----- Original Message ----- From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: <TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: November 22, 2005 18:00 
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Emailing: NIV.htm 
 
> Lance wrote: 
>> Other than when speaking with the religious 
>> leaders, will you illustrate Jesus doing something 
>> comparable? 

> Why are you exempting religious leaders? Are you not aware of the > religious 
> people of our day? The homosexuals are a religious people. Their culture 
> is based upon sexual hedonism. Have you not read Romans 1, where it says 
> that they "worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator"? See 
> Roman 1:25. 

> Romans 1:25-32 
> (25) Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served > the 
> creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 
> (26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their 
> women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 
> (27) And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, > burned 
> in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is 
> unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which 
> was meet. 
> (28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God 
> gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not 
> convenient; 
> (29) Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, 
> covetousness, maliciousn ess; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, 
> malignity; whisperers
> (30) Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of 
> evil things, disobedient to parents, 
> (31) Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, 
> implacable, unmerciful: 
> (32) Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things > are 
> worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do 
> them. 

> By the way, the administrators to whom I have carried my message from God 
> are Christian leaders! 

> Peace be with you. 
> David Miller. 

> ---------- 
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may > know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > http://www.InnGlory.org 

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>  
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"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.or g 
 
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