> [Original Message]
> From: David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org>
> Date: 11/27/2005 7:39:59 PM
> Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 'Calvin's beliefs are of Satan-He was an evil
man' says Dean Moore
>
> Dean wrote:
> > -No I did not read the entire work-but as you know
> > we can know a tree by its fruit-when A Saints plan
> > and carries out a gruesome death of another Christian
> > and later shows no remorse they have nothing that I
> > want to study to find truth.
>
> Such a comment tells me that you do not understand the history of Calvin.
> Be careful not to rest your judgment of another on gossip. I'm not a fan
of
> Calvin, as you know, but he should be criticized fairly if he is
criticized,
> not judged for what others have done in his name. Most of Calvinism
today
> stems from Calvin's student Beza, and much of it today is not
recognizable
> in the writings of Calvin himself
>
> Dean wrote:
> > No matter evil begets evil and two wrongs do not
> > make a right.Here are a couple of questions you
> > should answer:
> > 1.Can J.Calvin be scripturally justified for putting
> > Michael Servetus to death?
>
> Calvin never put Servetus to death. He reported him to the authorities,
and
> as a lawyer and theologian, he presented evidence in a court of law. The
> Council of Geneva are the ones who put him to death. In fact, he had
> already been convicted in Vienne where he was living under a false name
and
> lied to authorities in a court of law about who he was. He lied about
many
> material facts, and then escaped prison when pretending to go to the
> outhouse.
cd: At one point,it is true,Calvin wanted Servetus beheaded. Beheading was
employed for civil offences, and Calvin wanted it to appear to be a civil
matter rather than a religious one. But as there were no grounds for this,
the idea had to be given up.( Fisk, Calvinistic Paths Retraced. p.116).
So it does seem that Calvin wanted Servetus put to death David.
Convicted of hersesy by the Roman Catholic authoroties, Servetus escaped
the death by a prison break. Headed for Italy, Servetus unaccountably
stopped at Geneva, where he had been denounced by Calvin and the Reformers.
He was seized the day after his arrival, condeemed as a heretic when he
refused to recant, and burned in 1553 with the apparent tacit approval of
Calvin.(William P. Barker, Whos Who In Church History, p252)
>
> Dean wrote:
> > 2.Does a murderous hate,such as Calvin had,render one
> > spiritually unable to accurately interpret the scriptures
> > (1Cor.2:14; 1 Jn 2:9-11)
>
> How can you know of a murderous hate in Calvin? What are you talking
about?
> I'm not aware of Calvin murdering anyone. Are you? Please, be careful
not
> to trust in rumors and gossip.
cd: Calvin wrote:...But I am willing to pledge my word for his safety, for
if he shall come, I shall never permit him to depart alive, providing my
authortiy be of any avail. (Henry C. Sheldon, History of the Christian
Church, vol. 3, p159).
Calvins letter to a friend during the trial:
I hope that the verdict will call for the death penalty. (Walter Nigg, The
Hertics, p 328)
>
> Dean wrote:
> > 3. Can a unrepentant be saved (1 Jn3:15, Rev 21:8)?
>
> What has Calvin not repented of?
cd: Calvin never changed his view or regreted his conduct towards
Servetus. Nine years after the reproaches of Baudouin (1562) saying:
Servetus suffered the penalty due to his heresies, but was it by my will?
Certainly his arrogance destored him not less than his impiety.And what
crime was it of mine if our Council, at my extortation, indeed, but in
conformity with the opinion of several Churches, took vengence on his
execrable blasphemies? Let Baudouin abuse me as long as he will, provided
that, by the judgement of Malanchthon,posterity owes me a dept of gratitude
for having purged the Church of so pernicious a monster.(Scaff, History of
the Christian Church,Vol, VIII, pp. 690, 691).
>
> Can a liar and astrologer be saved? Servetus was both a liar and an
> astrologer. Does he get a free pass from you? Why do you refer to him
as
> "innocent"?
cd : And what do you offer as proof of this accusation towards Servetus?
From the prayers and ejaculations inserted in this book, and from his
dying cry for mercy,it is evedent that he worshipped Jesus Christ as his
Lord and Saviour.( Schaff, History of the Christian Church,Vol.VIII p.789)
"Jesus, Son of the eternal God,have mercy on me," the tormented man cried
from the mist of the flames. (Niggs, The Heretic,p.327)
The agony, however was proloonged. It seems that in the case of Servetus
green wood was used, so that it took three hours before he was pronounced
dead.
>
> Dean wrote:
> > History states that Sarvetus begged for pity from Calvin
> > (who used green wood as to make him suffer longer)for
> > 3 hours and received none. Do you believe Calvin will
> > receive any from God?
>
> Something is wrong with the history books you are reading. Calvin is the
> one who begged Servetus to recant his erroneous positions so that his
life
> might be spared. Calvin visited Servetus in prison and begged him to
recant
> his anti-Trinitarian views. Servetus asked Calvin for his personal
> forgiveness, which is apparently being exaggerated into "begging for
pity."
> Calvin gave him his forgiveness, but exhorted Servetus to ask for mercy
from
> God. Servetus also begged the city for the sword instead of fire, but in
> this, Calvin was in agreement with Servetus. Calvin had previously
> endeavored unsuccessfully with others to commute his death sentence.
Calvin
> did NOT support burning Servetus at the stake. Read Foxe's Book of
Martyrs
> and Schaff's History of the Church.
cd: Maybe something is wrong with what you read?
>
> David Miller wrote:
> >> What did you think about books I & II concerning
> >> the knowledge of God?
>
> cd wrote:
> > I don't need Satan to teach me the word of God.
>
> LOL. Is that what you think of Calvin? John Wesley believed Calvin to
be a
> wise and pious man, and a great instrument of God. Do you think Wesley
was
> wrong?
cd: Book and Chapter please?
>
> cd wrote:
> > To say such and live against this the same-
> > doesn't make a saint-If he was so concerned
> > about the Law why break it by killing an innocent
> > man.
>
> Calvin has already articulated his belief that heretics kill the soul,
and,
> therefore, with a legal basis in the Law, they should be put to death,
lest
> they kill other souls. Calvin simply believed that blasphemy is a
capital
> offense. We may not agree with that in our culture, but it certainly is
not
> breaking the Law to believe in capital punishment for blasphemy. Don't
you
> see how you are twisting the case against Calvin untowardly?
cd: Is this the Law? John Calvin wrote: Whoever shall now contend that it
is unjust to put heretics and Blasphemers to death will knowingly and
willifully incur their very quilt. This is not laid down on human
authority; it is God who speaks and prescribes a perpetual rule for his
Church.( Schaff , History of the Christian Church, VIII, pp. 22,23) David
where is this law giving to the church in the Bible?
>
> CD wrote:
> > The facts show that Calvin did not-Tell how many
> > souls have seen harm from the Tulip Calvin pushed?
> > The OSAS in itself had led many to hell and many
> > more to fall away.
>
> TULIP was not invented by Calvin. It was something put forward later by
> followers of Calvin in an effort to combat Arminianism. In like manner,
the
> OSAS has taken on many variations, some which strengthen and encourage
the
> believer in the providence of God, but others that lead people into
wanton
> sin. John Calvin himself would not have supported many advocates of the
> OSAS that you criticize. Again, you should be careful not to rely upon
> rumor and gossip. You should have read "Institutes of the Christian
> Religion" yourself.
cd: Why would I want to study from a man that states: Surely seeing the
kingdom of God is a act of faith and, if so,such faith is impossible
without regeneration. Hence regereration must be pior to faith. We can
affirm then on these grounds that the order is regeneration,faith,
justification. (John Murry, Redemption-Accomplished and appied p.104)
Also, Calvins "perseverance of the saints" doctorine would assert that
God's power will keep a truly saved person saved, even if he would fall
into grievous sins and for a time continue therein.(Westminster
Confessions, Of the Persevance of the Saints ,chapter XVII, paragraph 3,
6.096)
>
> Now please don't misunderstand me. I am not a five point Calvinist. I
just
> think our criticism of Calvin's teachings should be fair and accurate,
not
> based upon lurid tales based more in fiction than truth.
cd: Why are my studies fiction and yours truth?
>
> Peace be with you.
> David Miller.
>
> ----------
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
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