YES I'd like for you to post the 'newer'
material
DAVEH: I'm not fond of borrowing material from another forum to post
in its entirety, but I find Court Watch's comments from another forum
in which I lurk to be interesting to ponder, Lance........
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Court Watch wrote:
Subject:
[Grace-to-you] To Sandra: This One's For You!
If I understand it correctly,
the Protestant view of what we call the "Fall" in the Garden of Eden
need not have occurred. It was possible for Adam and Eve to always
obey God and, if they had done so, the human race could have continued
in a state of primal innocence. For the sake of argument, let's
suppose that the first couple had remained obedient and sinless. All
of their offspring would be born in the same condition, but each of
them would also then face the choice of whether to obey God or not.
(Presumably, Satan could have been very creative in thinking up various
ways to put them to the test.)
The odds are overwhelming that at least some
of these offspring would fall into sin, although others might not. The
sinful ones would then pass this fallen condition onto their children,
who would become the inheritors of their parents' "original" sin and
guilt. These people would stand in need of the redemption and
atonement for sin later offered by Christ, and might become inclined to
do all sorts of wicked things.
But the ones descended from sinless parents,
who also did not sin themselves, would not. They would have no need of
salvation as long as they remained perfectly virtuous.
If this could happen at all, I don't see why
it couldn't go on indefinitely. The human race would then have two
basic lines of development, but what a curious situation this would
be. It's a safe bet that the two groups would be in constant conflict
with each other. When it finally came, the gospel message to the
sinful group would be: "You need to repent and be saved." The message
to the sinlessly perfect group would be: "Don't worry, you're fine just
the way you are."
Now, it's safe to assume that the sinful
group might come to outnumber the sinless group, if only by virtue of
their ability to procreate more naturally sinful people. On the other
hand, the sinless folks would go on living forever on earth since they
would not be subject to physical death. That sounds nice at first, but
at least some of the sinful people would probably repent and be saved,
so that while their death was inevitable, so too was the possibility
that they would go to heavenly glory upon dying.
Who would then be better off--the perfect
people or the saved sinners? Which is better, a permanent existence on
earth, or eternity in a heavenly state? Once word got out that
forgiven sinners could go to a higher plane of existence and remain
there forever, wouldn't the perfect people be inclined to say: "This
business of obeying God is all very well and good, but I think I'd be
better off if I sinned and then repented of it so I can go to heaven
instead!"
If that all sounds far fetched, that's only
because it is--but then, so is much of what passes for "Christian"
theology about original sin. In light of the above considerations, why
is the LDS view of a "necessary" Fall (and one that didn't take God by
surprise) so outrageous? God knew exactly what would happen with
Adam
and Eve, and it was just what he had in mind all along. And if that's
not the case, then you are required to believe things that are much
more absurd than the "some sinless and some sinful" scenario described
above.
Things like:
Unbaptized infants spend eternity in hell.
St. Augustine certainly believed it, and he's the hero of Catholics and
Calvinists alike. After all, if original sin and guilt are inherited,
why should babies get a free pass? And if we think they're innocent,
maybe that's only because we're guilty ourselves. God's justice is
infinite, and so is his wrath. If the tykes haven't been "born again"
they're out of luck.
Some people have been predestined to be
saved, while others have been predestined by God to spend eternity in
hell, and there is absolutely nothing that anyone can do about it.
Why not? Because God is sovereign and that's the way he wants it.
Case closed. If you're smart, you'll at least pretend to be sure that
you're predestined to be one of the saved--and hope you're right.
(Hint: vilifying Mormons is regarded as a sure sign that you're saved,
so do it as often as possible.)
The vast majority of the human race will
spend eternity in hell anyway, because they never made a decision for
Christ.
This includes all those who have never even heard of Christ, from 33
A.
D. right up to the present. They also haven't been "born again" and
they never will be. If that sounds harsh, just remember that it isn't
God's fault that it took 20 centuries to invent television and
the Benny Hinn Show. Those who have access to a TV set now at least
have half a chance, but the rest are still hopelessly doomed.
Eternal security of the believer.
Once you're saved, you're always saved--whether you like it or not.
Since there is nothing you can do to lose your salvation, there's
nothing you can't do while not worrying about it. The possibilities
are endless and don't require much thought. Have fun! And if anyone
dares to refer to you as a "carnal Christian" because of your antics,
just tell them that Christ died to pay the price for your sins, and
you're just making sure that you get your money's worth. (If they
still aren't convinced, they have probably been visited by Mormon
missionaries so you are free to ignore anything they say.)
And why is it that Protestants (Catholics
too--don't mean to leave them out) think that Mormon theology is
erroneous? I give up on that one.
Well. . .in so far as any of this makes
sense, you can thank Sandra Tanner. These ideas came to me after
reading her contrast of the Mormon view of the Fall vs. the
dyed-in-the-wool true believer version she subscribes to. And if none
of it makes sense, let's just go ahead and blame. . .er, uh, I mean,
"thank" Sandra anyway. I'm a big believer in giving credit where
credit is due.
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............There are a few things about this I found particularly
interesting, and highlighted them, such as.......
"This
business of obeying God is all very well and good, but I think I'd be
better off if I sinned and then repented of it so I can go to heaven
instead!"
.........and......
God knew exactly what would happen with Adam
and Eve, and it was just what he had in mind all along. And if that's
not the case, then you are required to believe things that are much
more absurd than the "some sinless and some sinful" scenario described
above.
...........and.......
This includes all those who have never even
heard of Christ, from 33 A.
D. right up to the present. They also haven't been "born again" and
they never will be. If that sounds harsh, just remember that it isn't
God's fault that it took 20 centuries to invent television and
the Benny Hinn Show. Those who have access to a TV set now at least
have half a chance, but the rest are still hopelessly doomed.
............I will be interested in hearing what you think about the
above material, Lance.
Lance Muir wrote:
This IS the sort of thing I was
looking for. YES I'd like for you to post the 'newer' material.
thanks,
Lance
-----
Original Message -----
Sent:
December 09, 2005 02:34
Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject--A&E
DAVEH: Sorry to take so long getting back to you on this, Lance.
While I can give you a longer version than before, I certainly can't
give you all the details, as I have neither the time (I do need some
sleep!) nor the knowledge. But.......
As you must know, I believe God created us spiritually prior to the
creation of the world. IOW....we were spirit beings in a pre-mortal
existence. It is my belief that God the Father consists of a spirit
housed in a physical body. He created us as spirit beings, with the
intent that we could (if we desire and are obedient) become not only
one with him, but also perfect (complete, as Perry would suggest) as he
is perfect.
That basic process is known by LDS folks as eternal progression....effectively
progressing from a created spirit being to one who is like God. As has
been often quoted, one LDS authority said.......
As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.
.........which is a catchy phrase that tends to excite many Christians,
yet it implies the thinking of many LDS folks who believe we have the
potential to become like God....IFF we so desire to fulfill our
potential to become one with the Lord by being obedient to him. Those
who do so, bring glory to the Lord. Those who don't will suffer
damnation (hell) to some extent, by impeding their eternal progression.
In order that the spirit beings in the pre-mortal existence can
progress to the point of gaining a glorified resurrected body of flesh
and bone, as the Savior now has, it was necessary for us to be born
into a world created perfectly, so to speak. Adam and Eve were created
as immortals, and as such were incapable of death. Not only that, but
they were incapable of understanding the difference between good and
evil....they were innocent. Yes, they were pure and undefiled, but yet
they were also naive in their innocence.....quite unlike God who knows
the difference between good and evil.
By placing the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden,
and then commanding them not to eat of that tree, explaining that they
would die IF they partook of the forbidden fruit, God made it possible
for them to not only gain the knowledge needed to become like him, but
he also provided a way they could shed their bodies of flesh and
blood....by dying, which separates the spirit from the body.
In partaking of the forbidden fruit, not only did A&E subject
themselves to the possibility of physical death (which we define as the
separation of the spirit from the physical body), but they also were
separated from God.....which we define as spiritual death. In
essence, this resulted in A&E experiencing two forms of
hell....first the separation from God, and second being returned to the
state of a spirit being, without the ability to overcome that deficit.
Hence, they would remain in that eternal state of damnation forever, if
it were not for God's plan of salvation.
That plan of salvation was prepared before the foundation of the
world, and Jesus was chosen to implement it. God prepared his Son to
be a perfect sacrifice to atone for A&E's (and all of
mankind's) transgressions. Not only that, but the Son he foreordained
to save us from our (specifically, A&E's in this instance) sins
also was able to overcome physical death in a process we know as the
resurrection. Neither of these impediments to our progression were
things we could overcome on our own though. We had to have a Savior do
that for us. Due to his resurrection, all will be resurrected and gain
an immortal physical body. Due to his atonement, all will have the
opportunity to have their sins remitted and return to heaven IF they so
desire and are willing to be obedient to the Lord's commandments. That
is why it is through his grace that we are saved.......nothing we could
do on our own could accomplish that salvation. Once Jesus fulfilled
that mantle of salvation (both physical and spiritual), the only thing
standing between us and God is ourselves. Effectively.......We can
either keep the commandments, and return to the Lord in heaven, or we
can eschew them and suffer damnation (impedance) to our eternal
progression.
I hope that answers your query, Lance. If you want a slightly
deeper (and different) view of the Fall, I can post an interesting
perspective of the Fall that was recently posted to an LDS
Forum.....just let me know if that appeals to you.
Lance Muir wrote:
PLEASE DAVE,
I would appreciate the longer
explanation so as not to confuse those less informed about
Mormon/Christian distinctives.
When you speak of 'god', I'd
appreciate you supplying the 'god history'. When you speak of jesus
(your jesus), I'd appreciate you giving us real Mormon teaching. And
on....
PLEASE SUPPLY THE REAL DEAL! I'm
quite serious on this, Dave.
thanks,
Lance
----- Original Message -----
Sent:
December 06, 2005 02:57
Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject--A&E
will you kindly tell all of us
how you, as a Mormon, understand these events?
DAVEH: Getting into that will likely just get Perry excited again,
Lance! But....that has not worried me too much in the past.....
Let me give you the short explanation. I believe God intended
A&E to transgress. Why? For several reasons. First......to learn
the difference between good and evil. If God did not want A&E to
know about evil, why did he allow Satan to exist in the paradise we
know as the Garden of Eden? The world was not yet in a fallen state,
yet Satan seemed to have free reign....
Second, I believe mortality is an important step in what LDS folks
call eternal progression. Without the step of mortality, our
progression back to heaven is effectively stopped. We consider it to
be damnation.
Third, LDS theology suggests that had A&E not transgressed,
they would not have been able to have had children. Just imagine the
situation that would occur IFF A&E had not transgressed, yet had
descendants who would have transgressed.
We know that Jesus was foreordained to be our Savior before A&E
even existed. (I assume you agree with that premise.) To me, that is
a good indication that God knew what A&E would do when tempted by
Satan. He then set the stage for that event to happen, so that the
plan of salvation could unfold in a manner that God planned and intended.
We all know what did happen. It is my belief that God intended it
to happen that way. Yet most Christians seem to think God's plan was
interrupted by A&E's transgression. I see it exactly the
opposite....God was not fooled or impeded in implementing the plan of
salvation. It was carefully laid out and continues to be implemented
to this day, just as the Lord planned it.
Lance Muir wrote:
To DaveH:
I also would like to hear
YOU on this. Utilizing all that you know and, employing terminology
that would be meaningful to any Mormon, will you kindly tell all of
us how you, as a Mormon, understand these events?
-----
Original Message -----
Sent:
December 05, 2005 07:34
Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject--A&E
You have brought this up in the
past on TT DaveH but it didn't last long because there is no place to
go with it.
By definition all anyone could
come up with is their own speculation. God wasn't caught blindsided.
He knew
and prepared for this "BEFORE
the foundation of the world" so it's too late for "shoulda, coulda,
woulda" now.
Do you mind if I ask why this
subject is so interesting to you??
DAVEH: May I suggest another topic of interest to
me? I am curious as to if any of you folks ever consider what would
have happened IF Adam and Eve had not transgressed. Does that discussion ever come up with you folks?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Look -- what are we going to discuss here on
TT? We have pretty much said all that can be said about any number of
subjects.
jd
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain six email lists...
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain six email lists...
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain six email lists...
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
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