Re: [TruthTalk] Rightousness (jd 2 cd)

Sun, 05 Feb 2006 14:45:09 -0800

 
cd:Respectfully John- I agree with this but we are speaking about after salvation and you keep going back to how we initially got saved this is why I get tired of going around in circles with you bro.You are wrong about losing one salvation and work yet to be done.I'm starting to wonder who first lead you guys to God with the Bible-as words don't seem to have meaning so why would John 3:16 get you attention?
Heb 4:11 Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
----- Original Message -----
From:
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 2/5/2006 5:17:07 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Rightousness (jd 2 cd)

We are saved by faith in exchanged for [personal] righteous  (Romans 3:28).
 
who's faith  ..  ours or someone elses?
 
"  .....in whom we approach God with boldness and confidence through the faithfulness of him (cf. Eph 3.12).
 
 
There isn't a weak link in that chain that provides salvation.  Christ our the solo complii  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
 
Thanks  --  I forgot about this scripture.  
 
john
 
 
 
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Yes, John: on the "faithfulness of Christ" (in your recent post). I should have been a little more observant in my use of Scripture below (I was referencing the NKJV). I am going to make a couple of changes therefore in blue which are represented in the Greek text by a genitive "of Christ" and not a dative "in Christ." Notice how the weight of salvation shifts when we hold true to the original language of Scripture. Thanks for reminding me of this. I will try to be more astute in the application of my own scholarship :>)
 
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: Taylor
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Rightousness (jd 2 cd)

cd writes: If it is true that the entire world enters like reconciled to Christ-where is their sin for the need to be reconciled-for sin brings the argument from God and hence the need of a mediator to present our case before God.

"Reconciliation" took place in Christ, Dean. He defeated sin at the cross, thereby reconciling the world to God; for while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us; and if one died for all, then all died in him. This is symbolized in the tearing of the curtain from top to bottom. Why then the need for a mediator? because Christ stands where the curtain once hung. What once prevented man from approaching God (because humans continue to sin and fall short of his glory) is now mediated by the one who is both man and God. He did what could not be done by man alone and what he did in man he did for man as well. Ours is thus a priest who can fully commiserate with our struggle, in whom we approach God with boldness and confidence through the faithfulness of him (cf. Eph 3.12).

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2Pe 2:20 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning."

cd writes: If they were not true Christians why does verse 20 state that their sin were removed because of knowing Jesus Christ as the savior-and warns them not to get entangled into sin again?

Verse 20 doesn't say that; in fact, it doesn't even mention sin or its removal; rather, that is your interpretation of this verse. I interpret it differently. Peter is simply saying that they -- the false teachers -- having been members of this church, have first-hand knowledge of Jesus Christ and therefore have no excuse for denying him and returning to the pollutions of the world beyond that believing community.

Bill

 

----- Original Message -----
From: Dean Moore
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Rightousness (jd 2 cd)

 
 
 
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Taylor
Sent: 2/3/2006 11:12:45 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Rightousness (jd 2 cd)

cd: Yes-that is why God will hold these sins to their accountably.To think otherwise would make the God we know a mean Spirit who punishes his creation for doing something that they could not help
 
 

"Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation."   -- 2Corinthians 5.18-19

cd: Yes he removed transgressions from those whom came to receive Christ

Well, Dean, I would argue that that is not what the passage states.

but what about those who return to sin or those who reject Christ-are you saying they are accountable for doing something they cannot help but to do?

No, I am not. I am saying that the entire world enters life reconciled to God in Christ. That is a fait accompli. There is no "getting saved" about it. They are saved, and this a mighty work of God in Christ. Those who mature to embody this truth by believing in Jesus Christ receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, whereupon their salvation is sealed, its surety resting in a guarantee from God himself.

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cd: If it is true that the entire world enters like reconciled to Christ-where is their sin for the need to be reconciled-for sin brings the argument from God and hence the need of a mediator to present our case before God.

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BUT those who knew God (see Rom 1.21) but reject Christ will eventually be lost, lest they repent of that denial; for these are those who have trampled underfoot the Son of God and insulted the Spirit of Grace, having denied the Lord who redeemed them.

cd: Bill tell me how do you receive the below verse to mean? It is in English and the words are connected to meaning behind the words-what do you think those connections illustrate?

2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

If you will trace the context of this passage, you will discover that it begins in chapter 2 verse 1. The "them" of 21 and 22 are thus the "false teachers" of 2.1, who have denied the Lord who bought them. 

NKJ 2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. ... 12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, ... 17 These are wells without water, ... 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; ...

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cd: I noticed you left out this verse why?2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

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 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire."

David Miller (himself a Wesleyan in good standing) and I had this discussion a few months back, and we both concluded that the "false teachers" of Peter's address were not and had never been true Christians (i.e., believers who had once come to a genuine faith but had later lost their salvation); rather, they were men who basically new enough of the gospel to incorporate some of its language, thus sounding credible, but had never been converted by its truth; hence their intentions from the outset were not to follow Christ but to lead people astray. You are welcome to disagree if you like, but rather than rewrite that book from scratch, I would like to first direct you to the archives; perhaps after reading our discussion and tracking its dynamics, you will have a change of mind. Just search for "denying the Lord who bought (or perhaps redeemed) them." This should eventually get you into that thread.

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cd: If they were not true Christians why does verse 20 state that their sin were removed because of knowing Jesus Christ as the savior-and warns them not to get entangled into sin again?

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Thanks, bro.

Bill

 

 

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