I like what Debbie says here, but she doesn't seem to understand why I said the sentence that she quoted. Victor objected to what I wrote, but does not identify what. One of the things I wrote was:
"This was the cultural mindset then, that the depravity of man was so great that nothing could be done about it. Their thinking was that everybody sins even when they are unaware of it. This actually was good business for them, given the position of the church in relation to the people. They practiced confession to priests and even the selling of indulgences." I was wondering if this is the part which he thinks was off base. By the way, I suspect Victor is much more qualified than me to comment on these things. I really don't have any qualifications. It seems to me that at that time, people were going out and sinning, then buying their "get out of hell free cards" from the church. Perhaps Luther didn't like this business of people sinning followed by repentance followed by sinning again. People were not wholly devoting their lives to the Lord. They were not following repentance with good works, etc. He was also pointing out how they could receive forgiveness without the church, indicating their individual involvement in receiving forgiveness. As for her last comment, I have not heard any commentary from them about this last thesis. It may be that they ignore it. It may be that they explain it away in some way. Who knows. Whatever the situation, the blessed assurance / peace, peace concept expressed in relation to their interpretation of his first thesis is certainly a little different from how Luther ended his conversation. It would be interesting to hear either Victor or Judy explain this. David Miller. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 9:54 AM Subject: Fw: [TruthTalk] Fw: Fw: Continuing repentance ----- Original Message ----- From: "Debbie Sawczak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'Lance Muir'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: February 22, 2006 09:36 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Fw: Fw: Continuing repentance > What David says about Luther's theses interests me from a discourse point > of > view. "Difficult to understand by those not familiar with Roman > Catholicism > and the historical situation of penance and indulgences." Of course! --as > ALL writing, no matter how good, is difficult to understand by those not > familiar with the context. A very important point is being made there. > However, I think Victor is at least as qualified in that respect as David. > As to poorly written, it was well enough written to change a great many > people's minds and lives. Norms for writing also change over time. By many > writers' standards, some of Paul's letters would be "poorly written". > David > is the judge of Luther's writing? > > In any case, David has also hit on something important by referring to the > last thesis. But instead of dismissing the commentary by others who have > ALSO read this thesis, he should consider the possibility that the two are > not contradictory--that if he has taken the commentary on the first thesis > to be somehow in conflict with the last one, perhaps he has misunderstood > both. > > D > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lance Muir [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 8:15 AM > To: Debbie Sawczak > Subject: Fw: [TruthTalk] Fw: Fw: Continuing repentance > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org> > Sent: February 22, 2006 08:09 > Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Fw: Continuing repentance > > >> We are indeed dealing with a difference in how terms are defined. More >> than >> that, we also have a different viewpoint of the normal Christian life. >> Is > >> a >> believer one who is constantly crawling off the altar, or is he one >> subject >> to other forces attempting to pull him away from the altar while he >> maintains his integrity to stay on the altar and in communion with the >> Lord? >> I opt for the latter. >> >> Repentance loses all meaning when we define it as being characterized by >> joy. Repentance involves sorrow. Sack cloth and ashes. What is that >> all >> about? James 4 properly describes the mourning that should be involved >> in >> repentance. John wants to dismiss it because it is written to >> Christians. >> Well, if a person finds himself to be a sinner, whether he calls himself >> a >> Christian or not, he needs to repent, and James tells him how. The >> admonition is that we are not to be joyful when we see that we are >> sinners. >> This goes right along with 1 Cor. 5 when Paul speaks of the Corinthians >> being puffed up. They had a sinner in their midst, and they were puffed >> up, >> patting him on the back and telling him that he is saved and accepted by >> God. >> >> When Luther wrote what is known as the 95 theses, he was dealing with a >> corrupt system in the church, a corrupt system of penance and >> indulgences. >> The whole thing is poorly written and difficult to understand by those >> not >> familiar with Roman Catholicism and the historical situation of penance >> and >> indulgences. His leading sentence is the most ambiguous of all, saying >> that >> Jesus was calling for the entire life of believers to be one of >> repentance. >> He never really defines what he means by that. He defines only what he >> does >> not mean. Namely, he says that repentance does not mean the sacrament of >> penance, nor does it mean only inner repentance of the heart. >> >> I truly think that Luther did not fully grasp what repentance was because >> he >> had one foot in the Roman Catholic Church and one foot in Jesus Christ. >> Now >> others take his statements to argue that repentance is joy, and >> repentance >> is a constant work in life. I would hope Luther would object to the >> modernizing of his statements. Perhaps he would, because he ends his >> thesis >> by warning against those who avoid the cross and proclaim peace, peace. >> His >> last thesis was: "And let them thus be more confident of entering heaven >> through many tribulations rather than through a false assurance of >> peace." >> I like this statement much better than all the commentary on what he >> might >> have meant by his first statement that Christ's command to "Repent" was a >> call for the entire life of believers to be one of repentance. It now >> occurs to me that perhaps what he really meant was that one's whole life, >> not lifetime, but entire body, soul, and spirit, was to be one of >> repentance. If this is what he meant, then I would feel compelled to >> revise >> some of my words in my previous post. Perhaps my objections should be >> more >> directed toward the modernist's interpretation of Luther rather than >> toward >> Luther himself. >> >> David Miller. >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Lance Muir >> To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org >> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 6:54 AM >> Subject: [TruthTalk] Fw: Fw: Continuing repentance >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Debbie Sawczak >> To: 'Lance Muir' >> Sent: February 21, 2006 14:23 >> Subject: FW: Fw: Continuing repentance >> >> In other words, David does not seem to have taken the point about penance >> and our modern psychological equivalent. >> >> And probably both views of repentance are true--both kinds are happening. >> The constant re-orienting, the constant checking the compass and >> correcting >> for deviation on the one hand, and the punctiliar turnings on the other. >> >> D >> >> From: Debbie Sawczak [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 1:57 PM >> To: 'Lance Muir' >> Subject: RE: Fw: Continuing repentance >> >> I understand what he is saying about the one-time turn, but I don't think >> this is what Victor/Luther meant. They mean something more like that >> funny >> little cliche people used to say about Romans 12:1: the problem with a >> living sacrifice is that it keeps crawling off the altar. In other words, >> we >> tend to actually turn off the track, and have to turn again in order to >> get >> back onto it. Not the track of salvation or reconciliation, but the track >> of >> living (proceeding with our fifth act of the play, as it were, making our >> way through life in this world) out of our relationship to Christ, >> oriented >> to him. I would even say that sometimes, our turning off the track is a >> stumbling into the morass of self-willed morality. >> >> Is JD also making the point that repentance is not a mournful act? Am I >> understanding him aright? If so, I heartily agree. Repentance is not the >> same as remorse or regret. Turning back to the right direction, turning >> back >> into harmony and intimacy with Christ, is surely a joyful act! >> >> D >> >> >> From: Lance Muir [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 1:16 PM >> To: Debbie Sawczak >> Subject: Fw: Fw: Continuing repentance >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> To: Lance Muir >> Sent: February 21, 2006 12:39 >> Subject: Re: Fw: Continuing repentance >> >> David writes: If we really were suppose to be in a constant state of >> repentance, this last phrase has no meaning. Is such were so, we should >> then all be sad, mourning, without joy. >> >> I have found, over the years, that Daivd does not appreciate a difference >> between "confessing" and "repenting." The comments of James 4:8 have >> to >> do with "repentance," in the mind of David and that is why he says what >> he >> does in the above. He does not seeem to consider thte fact that James is >> a >> leter written to those who have already "turned around." If you are >> always respenting, then, you are always in sorrow. >> >> If repentance is more than the point in time we turn around, if it >> extends >> to the walk extending from this "repenting," how is it possible that >> repentance is not on-going? >> >> John >> >> ---------- >> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may >> know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) >> http://www.InnGlory.org >> >> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a >> friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. >> > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.12/266 - Release Date: 2/21/2006 > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.12/266 - Release Date: 2/21/2006 > > > ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
