On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 8:56 PM PGage <pga...@gmail.com> wrote: > I won’t relitigate the Rather Affair here, but again I dispute your over > simplistic summary. I Will point out the irony in you bashing O’Donnell > for being lazy and sloppy by lazily and sloppily misstating that Williams > had been fired. >
That remark is juvenile. It’s like when the right would attack Jon Stewart for missing a detail. I’m not a f*cking journalist. I could be equally juvenile and point out you called him Brain Williams, but it doesn’t get us anywhere. But more to the point, your dichotomous schematic for judging journalists > is illegitimate and unsustainable. As I noted, no profession could stand up > to your implied standard. > They aren’t MY standards. The concept of journalistic standards isn’t something I pulled out of my ass. The definitions of facts, sources, verification of sources, collection of evidence, presentation of evidence... these aren’t new. O’Donnell knew them. He ignored them. He should be fired because of it. > > On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 8:44 PM Kevin M. <drunkbastar...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 8:31 PM PGage <pga...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Totally disagree with Kevin’s take. In the first instance, I dispute his >>> premise: Rather was not fired for the Bush “blunder”, but because CBS News >>> did not have the balls to stand up to the President and a large >>> conservative pressure campaign. >>> >> >> Rather didn’t fact-check a story he ran that turned out to be full of >> holes. He’s no longer the anchor of CBS news. Williams messed up details of >> places and events he claimed to be part of. He’s no longer the anchor of >> NBC news. A rose by any other name is still a fired rose. >> >> And Brain Williams was never fired at all, just suspended and demoted. >>> Second, professionals of all kinds make mistakes of judgement; not >>> accidents where they unintentionally push the wrong button, but when they >>> fall short of the minimum standards of competence in their profession. That >>> Is true of physicians, lawyers, engineers, clergy and journalists. In no >>> universe is there a rule that the automatic penalty for a single mistake is >>> termination. If that weren’t the case there would be almost no doctors >>> working at your local hospital. That is not to say that termination is >>> never appropriate of course. Some errors are so gross, or so damaging, that >>> even one can not be tolerated. But it is a judgement call made on the >>> merits of each case. In this case, O’Donnell admitted his process error >>> promptly and corrected it on air. There is no evidence of intentional >>> deception or malice, just impulsiveness and bad judgement. Owning up the >>> mistake and retracting it is actually consistent with the highest standards >>> of his profession, and stands in stark contrast with the most common >>> behavior of some others who double down on their inaccuracies and lies, and >>> live as if the only unforgivable sin is to admit a mistake. >>> >>> It would be not just a gross injustice, but a threat to a free and >>> independent press, if O’. Donnell was to be fired for this, as it would >>> imply that the press must be perfect in order to be free, which is hostile >>> to the purpose of the first amendment. >>> >>> The press doesn’t need to be perfect, but as all eyes focus on it, the >>> minimum standard needs to be higher than it is. O’Donnell quite simply is >>> no longer a journalist with basic standards of reporting. If MSNBC does >>> nothing, they are not a news outlet, just a source for gossip like TMZ. The >>> first amendment gives them the right to be a gossip rag, but if that’s what >>> they want to be, it is disingenuous to call itself a news outset >>> >> >> >> >>> On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 8:07 PM Kevin M. <drunkbastar...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 7:21 PM Melissa P <takingupspace...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Very quick mention at the top of the show where he said that the >>>>> story's been retracted, but also said that the retraction doesn't mean >>>>> that >>>>> it's inaccurate. >>>>> >>>>> I doubt his job's in jeopardy. Nor should it be. >>>>> >>>> >>>> He failed in his role as a journalist. If his job isn’t in jeopardy, I >>>> don’t ever again want to hear anybody claim MSNBC is a news network. >>>> >>>> The reason I have such a head full of steam about this is Trump will >>>> use this. It’s a huge victory for him when progressives make easily >>>> preventable mistakes. There was no pressing need for O’Donnell to air the >>>> story without first checking the facts. No excuse for getting it wrong. >>>> Journalists were already being targeted by the Trump cult... this just >>>> further motivates them. >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 10:16 PM Steve Timko <steveti...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I didn't watch it, but Bill Carter said it was a routine correction. >>>>>> https://twitter.com/wjcarter/status/1166894818150289408 >>>>>> More than FOX News does, sure, but we have to have higher standards >>>>>> than that. >>>>>> We'll see if O'Dennell gets a FOX News style vacation. Maybe he >>>>>> doesn't have to be fired, but this deserves at least a serious butt >>>>>> kicking. Firing is in the realm of possibility. We don't know what >>>>>> happened >>>>>> behind the scenes. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 5:50 PM Kevin M. <drunkbastar...@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> CNN has a story on the story. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/28/media/msnbc-lawrence-odonnell-deutsche-bank/index.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If Dan Rather got fired for the Bush Jr story blunder, and Brian >>>>>>> Williams got fired for his misremembering events, O’Donnell has to go. >>>>>>> End >>>>>>> of story. He acknowledged airing a story without going through proper >>>>>>> fact-checking. He’s gone. I don’t say that maliciously... just last >>>>>>> night I >>>>>>> listened to a nice interview with him on the West Wing Weekly >>>>>>> podcast... I >>>>>>> like the guy. But he majorly screwed the pooch. There’s no walking it >>>>>>> back. >>>>>>> There can’t be. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 4:51 PM Kevin M. <drunkbastar...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Lawrence ran a story that hadn’t been vetted by NBC News. The >>>>>>>> single source turned out not to have seen what he claimed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://twitter.com/lawrence/status/1166529030352510976?s=21 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Today, the mea culpa. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://twitter.com/lawrence/status/1166800943272353792?s=21 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Kevin M. (RPCV) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Kevin M. (RPCV) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "TVorNotTV" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to tvornottv+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tvornottv/CA%2B_fQPww-63eJCCTp02O4N96e5QzxvnZkCDYsrpDSKLvaOqKoA%40mail.gmail.com >>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tvornottv/CA%2B_fQPww-63eJCCTp02O4N96e5QzxvnZkCDYsrpDSKLvaOqKoA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>> . >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kevin M. (RPCV) >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "TVorNotTV" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to tvornottv+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tvornottv/CAKgmY4Cx1OsNiOFScPgx7UMqDrSHrxTsMPauwtW%2BBiO9N_BpaQ%40mail.gmail.com >>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tvornottv/CAKgmY4Cx1OsNiOFScPgx7UMqDrSHrxTsMPauwtW%2BBiO9N_BpaQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>> . >>>> >>> -- >>> Sent from Gmail Mobile >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "TVorNotTV" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to tvornottv+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> >> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tvornottv/CAKGtkYJUaNLLo17HUAr7gRtZ5mUs3YeuMu1QhLj3OiskuDrFSA%40mail.gmail.com >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tvornottv/CAKGtkYJUaNLLo17HUAr7gRtZ5mUs3YeuMu1QhLj3OiskuDrFSA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >> -- >> Kevin M. (RPCV) >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "TVorNotTV" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to tvornottv+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> > To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tvornottv/CAKgmY4DVjFA64t6RmHWJWWNtVUodx9BbiJbTuvGMscTjZwUrsQ%40mail.gmail.com >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tvornottv/CAKgmY4DVjFA64t6RmHWJWWNtVUodx9BbiJbTuvGMscTjZwUrsQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> > -- > Sent from Gmail Mobile > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "TVorNotTV" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to tvornottv+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tvornottv/CAKGtkYLGEOGWMp7tN2ZG6EEy83jBoHiCO5Sw34qNLjTZLSAXWA%40mail.gmail.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tvornottv/CAKGtkYLGEOGWMp7tN2ZG6EEy83jBoHiCO5Sw34qNLjTZLSAXWA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > -- Kevin M. 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