On 08/14/2013 02:48 PM, Benjamin Kerensa wrote: > > > > On Tue, Aug 13, 2013 at 10:19 AM, Rick Spencer > <rick.spen...@canonical.com <mailto:rick.spen...@canonical.com>> wrote: > > On Mon, Aug 12, 2013 at 3:53 PM, Benjamin Kerensa > <bkere...@ubuntu.com <mailto:bkere...@ubuntu.com>> wrote: > > On Mon, Aug 12, 2013 at 11:23 AM, Jason Warner > > <jason.war...@canonical.com <mailto:jason.war...@canonical.com>> > wrote: > >> Hi All - > >> > >> Here's the latest follow-up on the default browser for 13.10 > discussion. > >> > >> Some great points were raised about the historic pattern of > updates around > >> Chromium. > >> > >> First, to get the formalities out the way, Firefox remains the > default for > >> 13.10. > >> > >> Second, I'd like to talk about the Chromium issues raised. It was > rightly > >> pointed out that there have been issues keeping up with Chromium > changes. > >> The big issue was with Web Apps integration and some changing > APIs. Since > >> we've introduced Web Apps changes like this have always caused us > some > >> grief. Web Apps have always been an interim step until we were > able to get a > >> more self contained web apps container. That work is planned for > 13.10 and > >> progressing well[1]. This should be done for 13.10 and very much > refined for > >> 14.04. > >> > >> Lastly, I do want to consider Chromium by default for 14.04 once > the above > >> is no longer an issue. I sincerely believe Chromium is the better > experience > >> for general users and should be strongly considered for our next LTS. > > > > You have not provided any criteria as to why Chromium would provide a > > better experience for general users. I think its important to note > > that so far there has been more opposition by developers and users to > > making Chromium the default. > Have these reasons not been discussed ad naseum? I think most > developers probably consider this a relatively minor decision that > Jason and the desktop team are well position to make. I don't believe > there will be any 100% consensus on this issue, and it's clear that > Jason has been very active in soliciting and considering input and > different points of view. At the end of the day, someone needs to make > a decision, and in Ubuntu, we must entrust the people doing the work > to make decisions. > > > I do not think the any technically valid reasons have been discussed > actually. Most of the feedback has been in opposition of changing to > Chromium not supporting the change. > > I do not believe this is a decision that Jason and the Desktop Team get > to make which is why they opened it up to feedback from all developers > and the support was just not there had it been then the change would > have been made. > > I think you are absolutely right that there is not going to be a 100% > consensus for this change because in reality the support is not there > and no solid technical justification has been provided. Firefox can do > all of the things that Jason outlined that Chromium does the fact of the > matter is that Jason and the new maintainer are Chromium users and would > like everyone else to use their favorite browser versus sticking with > Firefox which has been a reliable choice for Ubuntu. >
Let's please keep the technical decision making based on technical discussion and merits. Which browser Ubuntu ships by default is not personal. > > > > > > Without out any evidence of a greater experience I think it would be a > > poor decision to flip default on millions of users. > " Greater experience" is subjective so I don't think there will be a > lot of "evidence" that can't be counter pointed on either side. > > > So you agree that it would be difficult for Jason to prove that Chromium > offers Ubuntu Users a better experience than Firefox. Glad that is settled. > > > > I get that some people are passionate about Firefox. Some people are > passionate about Chromium. There were folks passionate about Banshee > and folks passionate about Rhythmbox. There were folks passionate > about Pdigin, and folks passionate about Empathy. The beauty of Ubuntu > is that a decision can be made about a default around which we can > rally for consistency and integration and low complexity for users, > but the default in no way limits anyone's freedom or their ability to > contribute to those projects that they care about. Deciding that > Chromium is the better browser for the default in Ubuntu is not saying > Firefox is a bad browser, or even that Firefox is not better for some > people in some situations. > > > The majority of the support is behind Firefox. Why would a minority of > people get to decide we should switch to Chromium? It makes absolutely > no sense to change a default to make a minority happy. > It's not about majority or minority, we don't make technical decision based on polls. Again, let's keep the technical decision making based on technical merits. > > > > > > If you could provide some solid technical justifications that motivate > > this discussion having been started it might be helpful in understand > > why such a change is proposed. If there is something lacking in > > Firefox then perhaps a dialogue can be started upstream and I would be > > happy to help guide such a discussion. > I find that these kind of discussions are rarely effective and can > easily cause hard feelings. The problem when choosing between 2 > similar pieces of upstream software is that it is rarely the case that > one of them stands still. So we've had situations where an upstream > implements requirements so that they can be default, but the > "competing" upstream meanwhile enhanced their product and so remained > the better choice. The first upstream then felt burned because playing > "catch up" did not work. So, when considering requirements, in my > epxerience it's generally better not to go down this road and rather > judge the products based on their current implementations, their > support models, and their road maps. > > In terms of "why is the discussion started" we must acknowledge that > Chromium is a very popular browser, works very well, but did not exist > all those years ago when Firefox was included as default in Ubuntu. > The desktop team wouldn't be doing their job if they weren't asking > these questions. > > Cheers, Rick > > > Ok lets judge browsers on their implementations, support models and road > maps all of which Firefox triumphs at. Lets not change to Chromium > because it fancies a minority in our community. (57% of people voted to > keep Firefox two months ago http://polldaddy.com/poll/7108833/?view=results) > I agree that we should use those criteria to judge, as well as any other *technical* criteria that is relevant, such as compatibility with our other form factors (we use WebKit for webbrowser-app on Touch, and there are QML bindings for WebKit in our SDK). There are many things to consider in this, but an online poll isn't one of them. So, one final appeal, let's keep the discussion technical, and not personal. As was mentioned before, both Chromium and Firefox are good browsers, they both offer a good user experience, they are both popular, and they are both open source. Neither could be considered a bad choice. > > -- > /*Benjamin Kerensa*/ > /http://benjaminkerensa.com/ > /"I am what I am because of who we all are" - Ubuntu/ > > Michael Hall mhall...@ubuntu.com -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
