Hi, I am sorry to but in like this but this seems like a non-issue really or have i missed the point entirely?
@Felix: You want mc on the CD since you have neither X nor a working network? I mean 'sudo apt-get install mc' is not really hard to type right? There are several potential problems with people not having sufficient rights etc to install and live-cd only servers can of course be a hassle but is it really such a big problem to either install mc or learn/teach a few bash cmds and a few moves in another editor? Is it really on the 8.04 CD? I had to install it manually. As for the value of OFM, I would like to emphasize the value power of bash. You can't beat the bash. For the record I would just like to say that i wouldn't mind having mc included, I kind of like it so if there is space let's put it in! / Henrik ons 2008-10-29 klockan 12:08 -0400 skrev Felix Miata: > On 2008/10/29 17:18 (GMT+0200) Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) composed: > > > Felix Miata wrote: > > >>> I haven't used MC since late 1990's and I can't really say I miss it! I > >>> perform lots of file-managing tasks every day and I'm quite happy with > >>> Nautilus. > > >> How nice for you that you've never had broken X, and never will have, and > >> never will need to help someone else with broken X. > > > I'm sorry, but you seem to be missing the point. Firstly, there's not so > > much argument about how useful mc is. mc powerful and useful to many. > > I've been using it for quite a few things since 1999. > > I use "it" routinely, since 1986, when I first discovered NC, instead of > using a bunch of other things I don't need to have or learn precisely because > I have "it". Knowing how to use OFMs has obviated more than token need to > learn tools non-OFM bash users take for granted, and GUI users have no > knowledge of or interest in. > > > What you have to realise is that the space on the Ubuntu installation > > disc is very, very limited. > > This is ancient history that comes up every time some again asks to have it > included by default. Those who don't use an OFM cannot appreciate the > extraordinary value of an OFM. Thus, the tyranny of the majority rules > neither mc nor any other OFM can live on a live buntu CD. Klaus Knopper knows > its value, which makes his space-limited live CDs the live Linux media of > choice for those in the know. > > > You're hitting quite hard on that point and I'm not quite sure > > how mc would make it easier for users to fix an X server. > > Automatic tools for fixing X are nice when they work, but it's often the case > that various and sundry things that a minor text edit would fix are > impossible to fix with a fancy tool. Similar for networking. Though you may > have X working, a telephone fix is often much easier navigating to a text > file and changing a character or three than explaining how to grunge through > yet another X with different menus and app names than the last. > > > That's what > > things like the failsafe X session are for, unless you're refering to > > mcedit being a more intuitive editor for new users? > > It's rare for any tool to do more than a few things well, if even more than > one. OFMs are such exceptions. The built-in FTP for fetching broken packages > is easy to use, as that process is the same as fetching a file on a local > filesystem, which is just as easy as in a GUI, having the advantage of a GUI > in visually depicting the relationship of files and directories to each > other, and making navigation a breeze. That an intuitive text editor is built > in goes without saying. A couple of keystrokes, and you have an in place copy > of the original, after which you edit and test, and copy the original back if > it didn't help, with another very few keystrokes, quite unlike cp/mv/vi, etc. > > Helping a user in need over the phone to fix things like X or networking is > easier if you can limit to one easy to use tool that requires a lot fewer > steps to accomplish a difficult task. When you do it in mc you've taught a > user to help himself, but that learning is only later useful in an > environment that includes that tool. > > Really, it's a total waste of time to discuss OFMs with OFM non-users. People > can't get what they're about if they don't use them. Only with routine use > can anyone grasp just how valuable they really are, and now indispensable > they are to those few who do depend on them. > -- > "Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak, and > slow to become angry." James 1:19 NIV > > Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 > > Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ >
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