Hi, I share your view Bruno. The meeting was definitely a success in those points, and it was getting very long indeed, I was starting to get fed up to the end, as a couple of others I believe.
But I must admit that, having thought about it a lot, John is perfectly right also, concerning the need of a core marketing group, the "kernel" as he nicely put it during the meeting ;-). Was it a mistake, a big loss, not to have defined it two days ago? I think not. It is not good to precipitate these things, maybe John was ready and had his ideas clear about this need, but visibly it was not the case for all of us. Now, I can say that I am not only half agreeing, but fully behind the suggestion of a "framing" (I feel this expression better than "leading"...) core group for the team. Yes, the people that discussed on IRC that day are absolutely necessary if we want things to move on. (I would like to make it clear that I am not talking of _one_ leader, but a group, indeed similar to the people that were on IRC.) Furthermore, I also believe that we _can_ touch the world with our marketing. Also, you are right in saying that we do not only have to set up this infrastructure, but also have a strong *creating* role, we have to, as you said; "develop the marketing tools for the LoCos to use. Everything from release party guides to how to talk to a Windows user to how to market in general.". But there we have a question of priorities we are setting ourselves! In my opinion, as I made it clear with Hubuntu during the meeting, it is most important and necessary to set up the said infrastructure, in order to centralize all existing resources (more than you'd think!). But I cannot deny the other mission we have, and that some of us will feel much more committed to it, and will be more effective in this role. To solve our dilemma, if we don't agree on our primary objective, I feel that (until SU is set up and running!) we are to create two distinct work groups in the team, which will raise our efficiency at its highest. This is what I study, at HEC Management school in Liège (similar to the one in Paris), and this is one thing I can assure you: It is more effective and productive to have two motivated work groups rather than pulling the whole team into a direction, that not all feel to be the priority. This does not, at all, interfere with the organisation and structure of the core marketing group, that should imperatively keep the one-team structure as its reality. If we have to nominate two work group "contacts", fine, I think that this might be necessary for the same reasons we need a core team. Before I finish, I would like to point out that my views on group dynamics and email (as Onno said) are not the same either, I find the current way of functioning very effective for the moment. If I can give you some advice... I also had it very hard with XChat (don't know which client you are using) and I instantly *loved* IRC when I discovered Konversation, it is the only KDE program I run... I felt it much more gentle with my eyes. But this is a very personal opinion, and not an invitation to debate, just saying how I solved my "IRC-hurts-my-eyes" problem. Wishing you all a nice day, Pierre Vorhagen, pep. Bruno Barrera Yever a écrit : > I have to disagree. Even though the meeting did not decide a leader, > or any kind of leadership role, the marketing team can still survive > and progress. The use of SU was decided, and to post the future > content of SU in the wiki was also decided. Improvements for the wiki > were also decided. The marketing team itself was "defined" to some > extent, which imho is a great improvement. Also, the meeting was > getting way too long, and the team structure is something that has to > be extensively discussed. > > I would, rather then get frustrated, be satisfied, that the meeting > actually served a purpose and was not just 3 hours of talking for > nothing. > > On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 10:15 PM, John Botscharow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> Hash: SHA1 >> >> >> >> It seems I sent the email I just apologized for from the wrong address, >> Not my day, I guess. Here us my reply to Onno as I originally intended >> it to look.bers. >> >> Onno Benschop wrote: >> >> My responses are interspersed below with relevant quotes from Onno's message >> >>> This message is being sent to the list because I believe in open >>> communication - even though some of the content is specifically for you. >>> >> That is the reason I posted the article to the list, and I was really >> hoping you would reply. >> >>> Your article is a very interesting take on your participation with >>> Ubuntu and the Ubuntu-Marketing team and for it's thorough and thought >>> out content I thank you. >>> >> To complete the social amenities, you are most welcome and I appreciate >> the effort you put into your reply >> >>> You raise some interesting points about perceptions and reality. >>> >> Yes, I believe that the main issue with this team is one of perception, >> or to be more exact, the group's self-perception. IMHO. it needs to >> change its perception about what marketing is, which will then change >> how it perceives itself, which, in turn, will change its reality. For >> the sake of brevity, I will not get into the changes in perception that >> need to be made in detail here. Rather I will write a separate message >> and post it here in a day or two. I am still working out my ideas in my >> head before committing them to "paper." >> >> >>> I am mindful of your visual...... If you have specific issues that need >>> software support that you are not able to overcome, then please let me >>> know and I'll attempt to assist you where I can. >>> >> My main problem, visually, is not email but the IRC chat. I really had a >> very hard time keeping up with the conversation because the screen >> changed faster than I could read it. That is the advantage of email and >> forums; they allow you to control the pace of the conversation :-) If >> you can offer some technical solutions that might help me with the IRC >> sessions, I would be most grateful. >> >>> Your comments about group dynamics and email are interesting because my >>> view is not even close to yours. >>> >> You are not alone in that, I suspect! >> >>> I've been using email as my primary communications medium since I came >>> on-line in 1990. ...> Another way to look at this highlights just how >>> >> far we are apart in our >> >>> experiences. >>> >> My point exactly. People like yourself who have little or no experience >> with Windows have very different perceptions of how virtually reality >> works. You've probably never had to spend hundreds of dollars having >> your hard drive cleaned of trojans and viruses or had to completely >> replace the hard drive or even your computer because of them. I've been >> there and done that as have many of the people I know who use their >> computers to make a living marketing online. >> >> It is the attempts to escape these email issues that led to the >> popularity of RSS. I know, because I was an early and vociferous >> advocate of direct-to-desktop marketing. >> >> >>> So, yes, Ubuntu needs to be marketed to the world, but there is >>> absolutely no way that we can do it ourselves, here, within this team. >>> >> I agree that it is not the responsibility of the marketing team to do >> the actual marketing to the world. That should be the job of the LoCos. >> They should have the tools and the authority to market Ubuntu to anyone >> and everyone in their region. We market Uvubtu to the world, but divide >> the world up among the LoCos. >> >> The responsibility of the marketing team, as I see it, is to develop the >> marketing tools for the LoCos to use. Everything from release party >> guides to how to talk to a Windows user to how to market in general. >> And, again, this requires a change in perception. We need to look beyond >> the limited marketing venues being used now and design tools and >> training materials to teach the LoCos to broaden their efforts. to go >> after organizations like Becta or a regional school district. or your >> doctor and her colleagues. We need to discuss our ideas. once they are a >> bit more developed with Canonicals marketing team to see how we can >> coordinate our efforts. And we need to encourage LoCos to seriously >> consider some form of incorporation so they can seriously market to >> entities like Becta. >> >> But that means that the core leadership of the marketing team, at least. >> needs to move out from what seems to be a somewhat provincial >> perspective to a more global perspective. If this is not clear to all, >> please let me know and I will develop it further. >> >>> Do I share your frustration that we cannot just get up and market this >>> thing to everyone? Not any more. >>> >> Interjecting a little humor here, with a kernel of wisdom: frustration >> will kill anyone's dreams. Been there, Done that. >> >>> The reason I'm not frustrated about it, is because I look at this from a >>> system perspective. We are building a system that makes it possible, >>> using volunteers and community members to harness their energy to do the >>> marketing that they want to. Personally I market Ubuntu most days. Not >>> actively go out and do letterbox drops, or advertising, or seminars, but >>> just in talking to people about Ubuntu, about OpenSource, standards and >>> other things that cause people to have a frustrating Windows experience. >>> >> This is the shift in perspective I am talking about. Not necessarily >> every member of the Ubuntu community, but a lot of us need to go out and >> market actively. really actively. Otherwise, all the work the developers >> are doing and will do is pretty much wasted. No matter how good a >> product is, it will not sell itself. That belief is a myth. The >> competition is too strong and markets itself very actively. If we >> seriously want to compete with them, we need to be more aggressive, even >> with volunteers - see below for more on this. >> >> More humor here: Heck, it is even possible that this could lead to the >> reality of none of us needing a day job any more LOL A bit far-fetched, >> but not out of the realm of possibility. It HAS been done before. I did >> it with a small social service agency. >> >>> So, yes, to actively participate in this community you need some skills. >>> We welcome you with open arms, we try to introduce new skills to you as >>> we go and we try to support you as time goes by. Is it hard - sure. Is >>> it frustrating - sure. Is it rewarding? >>> >> The problem with what you say in the paragraph above is that the >> adoption of new skills as you present it is a one-way street. What about >> making it a two-way street? Especially for a team like this one? The >> technical skills needed to be a good marketer are NOT the same skills >> you need to be a good developer. Marketing requires the ability to >> communicate with all kinds of people, many of whom have little or no >> specialized technical skills. I am not saying that new people should not >> learn the already existing technical skills. I AM saying the marketing >> team should seriously consider EXPANDING its arsenal of communication >> technologies so that we can communicate with those people, and more >> importantly, they can communicate with us. And we make these new >> technologies available to the LoCos! >> >>> Answer me this. >>> >>> If you were a Windows user, where is your community that helps you, >>> fixes software for you, gives you free advice and a place to share your >>> concerns and ideas, central resources to manage your machine and >>> community representation across many countries of the world, where you >>> can talk to people in Mexico, Denmark and Australia, just by hitting the >>> send button on your email client? >>> >> If you read the "Marketing Ubuntu" articles on my wiki, you will see >> that I consider the existence of the Ubuntu community to be one of the >> most important selling points of Ubuntu. And it is because I feel that >> way, that I am so adamant about this change of perspective. >> >>> So, please do not feel disheartened, rather feel encouraged that we take >>> note of your contributions and consider them together with the >>> contributions from other team members. >>> >> I am not disheartened. I am FRUSTRATED. A big difference. And, to be >> honest with everyone, I got even more frustrated AFTER the meeting. For >> a month now, we have discussed the need for direction and leadership on >> this team. And, yes, I am aware that everyone here is a volunteer and >> all that implies. I have been a volunteer before as well as a volunteer >> coordinator. Consensus is nice, if you can get it and you can afford the >> time to achieve it, but sometimes, and as far as I saw it, the meeting >> yesterday was one of those times, you have to take the bull by the horns. >> >> We accomplished half of what needed done. We set the direction for this >> team, and we, implicitly at least. we being those who attended the >> meeting, acted like leadership. The 8 or 10, I'm not sure of the exact >> attendance, stepped up and took on the leadership of this team. And we >> should have finished the job and said, "These are the people that have >> the time, the energy and the initiative to take action on behalf of the >> team. Let's make it official and formalize them as the core marketing >> group." >> >> That would have resolved both concerns. Instead, we postponed the >> leadership decisions for another month. I am not sure this team can >> afford that. I am afraid that I am not the only one who is still >> frustrated. If people's frustration levels get too high, we may lose >> some skills, talents, and expertise this team can ill afford to lose - >> and I'm not talking about myself here either. I think that most of the >> people on this list are waiting for someone else, other than themselves. >> to step up and do what needs done. Yesterday's meeting was an >> opportunity for that to happen, and it only got halfway there. >> >> That frustration was what really prompted my writing this article. The >> marketing team has to be the first to make this change of perception - a >> shift to a more global perspective - and then lead the rest of the >> Ubuntu community to rethink its perspective to a more global >> perspective. We will never make any inroads of any consequence on Bug #1 >> until we do. But, if and when that day comes. it will be awesome to see >> the effects!!! I truly believe this and I am committed to bringing about >> that change, even if it takes the rest of my life!!! >> >> >> >> >> - -- >> Peace! >> >> John >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >> Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) >> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org >> >> iD8DBQFITKBG3oYFui6B2koRAsliAJ4rLKrTx7gQ1fNyVY25++v8j49ZTgCdHeH3 >> McRYfXU9glhLHn1tGguGYyE= >> =ziYB >> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >> >> -- >> ubuntu-marketing mailing list >> ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com >> Modify settings or unsubscribe at: >> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing >> >> > > > > -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
