I'm not trying to argue with you on this issue -- it may very well be best for points
to be ignored. But I do want to understand the situation a bit better. My questions
below should not be taken as rhetorical criticism, but simply as questions for
clarification.
For others, I am also interested in the situation vis-a-vis Arabic, whether we should
treat it the same as Hebrew in terms of the vowel marks (fatha, etc.).
Mark
Jonathan Rosenne wrote:
> Why should case be ignored in English?
Except for an extremely small set of edge cases (such as Polish vs polish, God vs
god), there is no extra meaning attached to case.
> In Hebrew, points are optional. The word is the same with them and without them, or
>with just some of them.
I had thought that there were many words with the same base letters, but different
pronunciations (and meaning), and that different vowels would be used for the
different pronunciations. That's the way for Arabic, and I had assumed it was the same
for Hebrew. Is that not the case? From the base
letters in each word are the vowels always predictable, so that they are completely
optional?
> In addition, not all systems support them, and when they do most users don't know
>how to type them. It isn't easy - see http://www.qsm.co.il/NewHebrew/wniqud.htm
>
> A domain owner could publish it with points, to clarify the pronunciation, but many
>users would type it without them or even get them wrong.
Do you think that it is a realistic case, that a domain owner would use need to points
in that manner, and that a significant fraction of domain owners would do this?
> The issue has been discussed at the Hebrew WG of the SII and I think there is
>general agreement on this issue. We plan a paper some time in the future.
>
> I feel that when identifiers are case sensitive, such as in C, there may be a case
>for respecting points, although this would cause a problem with cross-system
>portability, but where case is ignored, such as in domain names, the emphasis is more
>on the pronunciation rather than the exact spelling.
I didn't quite get the last sentence. I had thought that the vowel marks were used to
get the exact pronunciation. If that is not true, it may be part of my
misunderstanding of the situation.
> Jony
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mark Davis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2000 7:58 PM
> > To: Unicode List
> > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Edmon
> > Subject: Re: [idn] nameprep forbidden characters
> >
> >
> > I am curious why you feel so strongly that the Hebrew points
> > should be ignored
> > in domain names. Prima facie, it seems that there is little harm
> > in treating
> > them no differently from other characters. What problem would arise if the
> > domain was ABC.COM and I could not get it by typing AB*C.COM?
> > (Here uppercase
> > stands for Hebrew, and * for a point.) Conversely, if someone really did
> > register AB*C.COM, would it be a problem that I couldn't get to
> > that location by
> > typing ABC.COM?
> >
> > It is my understanding that the vowels are rarely used, and that
> > people really
> > wouldn't use them in registered domain names anyway. It seems
> > that if someone
> > did take the trouble to type in the points, that there would be a
> > reason for
> > their making such a distinction.
> >
> > I'd appreciate it if you could help me to understand the issue
> > more clearly.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > Jonathan Rosenne wrote:
> >
> > > We should distinguish "punctuation", like 060C Arabic Comma, and
> > > "diacritics", such as 064E Arabic Fatha. Diacritics is probably
> > the wrong
> > > word. I have the impression that you were referring to the latter.
> > >
> > > For Hebrew, my opinion is that from the point of view of the user,
> > > punctuation should be forbidden, while diacritics such as the vowels and
> > > other combining characters should be allowed and be ignored.
> > >
> > > I believe it is important that the rules for Arabic and Hebrew
> > should be the
> > > same as far as possible.
> > >
> > > Jony
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
> > > > Behalf Of Wael Nasr
> > > > Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2000 1:16 AM
> > > > To: Edmon; idn working group; Adam M. Costello
> > > > Subject: RE: [idn] nameprep forbidden characters
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Wanted to share with you that in the arabic Working group of
> > minc we have
> > > > discussed this
> > > > point at length.
> > > > In arabic the meaning of the word will change depending on
> > punctuation ,
> > > > like the
> > > > words "knowlege" and "flag" in arabic are exactly the same except for
> > > > punctuation.
> > > >
> > > > It is my opinion that , at least regarding arabic, no punctuation
> > > > should be
> > > > allowed for now.
> > > >
> > > > I am sure 5 years from now , domain name systems will be much
> > more dynamic
> > > > than what
> > > > we have now and will not be simply a simple mapping of
> > unicode or ascii to
> > > > an ip number.
> > > > at that time, punctuation can be allowed to be part of the game.
> > > > wael
> > > >
> > > > -------------------------------------------
> > > > Wael Nasr
> > > > Director, Middle East Business Development
> > > > I-DNS.net
> > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > Cell Phone(Egypt):+(201) 222 55 380
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
> > > > Edmon
> > > > Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2000 12:59 AM
> > > > To: idn working group; Adam M. Costello
> > > > Subject: Re: [idn] nameprep forbidden characters
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps host names
> > > > > should avoid all punctuation in all languages so people
> > don't have to
> > > > > worry about it.
> > > >
> > > > I think we have to remember that it is the registrant's
> > choice to choose a
> > > > name that best reflects their identity online. Punctuations may
> > > > serve to be
> > > > great symbols that identifies an entity, for example a person
> > > > called O'Brian
> > > > would want to have the apostrophe for his domain name and a
> > company A&B
> > > > would want the "&" in their name. Our move to multilingual
> > is the best
> > > > opportunity for us to re-include these worthwhile and long
> > awaited symbols
> > > > back into the domain name space.
> > > >
> > > > Edmon
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > AMC
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
