Gregory,
Grégory Joseph wrote:
Hi Ruben,
On Feb 5, 2009, at 7:48 PM, Ruben Reusser wrote:
I retrieved the samples and installed the module. If I am seeing this
right, the jsp samples are now limited to one template and two
paragraphs.
As Philipp said, these are developer-oriented samples, i.e how-to's.
At least that's what we tried to do. In the sample module, the
freemarker samples are not more numerous nor advanced than the jsp
ones. It's not like the previous samples were usable in real life, is
it ?
the previous samples were at least usable so they would give the
developers samples for all kinds of things and give them a starting
point to continue development. A nice starting guideline and an easy way
to start exploring magnolia if you are familiar with jsp.
This seems very limited, giving the fact that the basic templating
(the sonic templating) site that should be used to create your own
web site (according to the release notes) is fully done in ftl.
We had to do a choice, and as said before, we do believe freemarker is
superior in many ways. But if *you* feel more comfortable with JSPs
and want to use the standard templating kit paragraphs and templates,
you still can.
I am not scared of freemarker. But if a companies choice is not to do
development in non standard language then I am bound to be using JSP and
in order to create a good looking site like the one you now provide with
the supersonic templating I have way more work to do. It also causes a
problem how JSP in magnolia is perceived. As you said above, magnolia
chose freemarker as superior and that by definition makes JSP a second
class citizen. The starting point for a JSP developer vs a Freemarker
developer are not the same. Will you change all the training material to
freemarker as well or will you teach both in the upcoming magnolia
training classes? How much more time does this add to the training?
Now we have a clear difference: the samples modules shows (or tries to
show) developers how to build their own templates with a very limited
set of examples to look at, and a focus on features. It should be
fairly obvious that these are not meant for real life usage (again,
that was the original goal, feel free to disagree and help make that
clearer). The standard templating kit on the other hand is a turnkey
solution that should enable you to build decent websites without a
developer/templater. You may even use the default theme we provide,
whereas I don't believe any one would have dared putting a website out
there with the look and feel of the 3.x generation of samples.
Again, the JSP developer had at least a chance to look into magnolia and
understand it quickly. The learning curve for masgnolia was an easy one.
It just became way more complex. Not only is supersonic templating
adding new ideas (btw: I like them) but also another language.
Why would somebody in their right mind use jsp with magnolia and why
do you expect a business to mix jsp and freemarker? That could be an
awful business decision since you now need people to understand two
technologies and not one.
It could indeed; it's only one extra possibility.
again, downloading and installing magnolia 4 rc3, it does not feel like
JSP is the way to go anymore if you do magnolia development. Maybe I am
wrong, would be great to hear from other people as well who downloaded
m4rc3 and does not work for magnolia.
Adding new poeple with freemarker knowledge probably is not easy
either since it is not a very commonly used technology (dice lists
currently 17 positions that mention freemarker in the job
description). It really feels to me that magnolia is abandoning JSP
as the primary templating language and pushing freemarker. As
mentioned before, I am not sure if that is a good message to send to
the outside world.
That is simply not true. As I've said in my previous mail, "you still
have the choice, we still support jsp, and you can still use any other
templating mechanism you fancy by using custom renderers".
yes but as I said before the choice of using JSP does not feel good anymore
I don't personally see what there is to freak out about. We add
flexibility and choices. That the message might not have been clear
enough is possible, and I'm sure Boris will read this, but reading
your mails, what I feel instead is simply fear of change - so I hope I
calmed those fears down a little ;)
The available modules speak louder than the message. I am not freaking
out. I just feel it's not a very business wise choice. If I am a new
developer to magnolia and has to do an assessment about the product I
would write in my report that the preferred way to develop is with
freemarker. And I would probably insist that all development in house on
top of magnolia is done with freemarker.
I'd like to know if I am the only one that thinks so outside of magnolia.
Cheers,
-g
----------------------------------------------------------------
For list details see
http://www.magnolia-cms.com/home/community/mailing-lists.html
To unsubscribe, E-mail to: <[email protected]>
----------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------
For list details see
http://www.magnolia-cms.com/home/community/mailing-lists.html
To unsubscribe, E-mail to: <[email protected]>
----------------------------------------------------------------
