Hi All,
I understand the concerns and would like to explore a bit on the topic.
The role Freemarker has in the STK
----------------------------------
Freemarker is a very reduced templating language and you can for
instance not write scriplets as you can in JSPs. So the freemarker
templates are reduced to html and some if else and listing loops. The
main power of the Stadard Templating Kit (STK) lays in the
architecture, the clean html structure and the java classes. Even if
the templating language seams to be essential it is just on the
surface. It might actually be possible to transform the templates from
freemarker to jsps quite easily (even automated).
Freemarker learning curve
-------------------------
The fact that there are not that many job descriptions for freemarker
developers is probably just based on the fact that it is just too easy
to learn. It might be helpful if we write a short magnolia oriented
primer (minimized to what you have to know). Anyway the tags you use
are the same (the original jsp tags) and most of the expressions are
1:1 the same like for instance ${content.title}. If we think it is
superior this is not because it is more complex but because the
template loading and processing has crucial advantages.
Here is the freemarker's reference: http://freemarker.org/docs/ref.html
Mixing templating languages
---------------------------
STK is build in a way that you can plug in your custom needs (adding
paragraphs, extending models, or changing/replacing one of the
structural main templates). If you look at the parts you reuse as a
black-box (and this is not the worst to do) you can add additional
components by using jsp or some other implementations (spring, cold
fusion, ..). I don't think this per se bad as long the templates
written in the company use the same language.
STK for JSP?
------------
I hope that we can adjust the impression (magnolia drops jsp) by
improving the documentation / communication. If there are to many
concerns (and that is why I appreciate your remarks very much) we
might have to think about how we can make STK a bit more JSP friendly.
Considering the similarity of the language we might have to go for an
auto conversion (freemarke -> jsp) so that we can deliver the two
flavors. But for the time being we stick to freemarker as the module's
preferred language.
Philiipp Bracher
On 5 Feb 2009, at 22:08, Ruben Reusser wrote:
Gregory,
Grégory Joseph wrote:
Hi Ruben,
On Feb 5, 2009, at 7:48 PM, Ruben Reusser wrote:
I retrieved the samples and installed the module. If I am seeing
this right, the jsp samples are now limited to one template and
two paragraphs.
As Philipp said, these are developer-oriented samples, i.e how-
to's. At least that's what we tried to do. In the sample module,
the freemarker samples are not more numerous nor advanced than the
jsp ones. It's not like the previous samples were usable in real
life, is it ?
the previous samples were at least usable so they would give the
developers samples for all kinds of things and give them a starting
point to continue development. A nice starting guideline and an easy
way to start exploring magnolia if you are familiar with jsp.
This seems very limited, giving the fact that the basic templating
(the sonic templating) site that should be used to create your own
web site (according to the release notes) is fully done in ftl.
We had to do a choice, and as said before, we do believe freemarker
is superior in many ways. But if *you* feel more comfortable with
JSPs and want to use the standard templating kit paragraphs and
templates, you still can.
I am not scared of freemarker. But if a companies choice is not to
do development in non standard language then I am bound to be using
JSP and in order to create a good looking site like the one you now
provide with the supersonic templating I have way more work to do.
It also causes a problem how JSP in magnolia is perceived. As you
said above, magnolia chose freemarker as superior and that by
definition makes JSP a second class citizen. The starting point for
a JSP developer vs a Freemarker developer are not the same. Will you
change all the training material to freemarker as well or will you
teach both in the upcoming magnolia training classes? How much more
time does this add to the training?
Now we have a clear difference: the samples modules shows (or tries
to show) developers how to build their own templates with a very
limited set of examples to look at, and a focus on features. It
should be fairly obvious that these are not meant for real life
usage (again, that was the original goal, feel free to disagree and
help make that clearer). The standard templating kit on the other
hand is a turnkey solution that should enable you to build decent
websites without a developer/templater. You may even use the
default theme we provide, whereas I don't believe any one would
have dared putting a website out there with the look and feel of
the 3.x generation of samples.
Again, the JSP developer had at least a chance to look into magnolia
and understand it quickly. The learning curve for masgnolia was an
easy one. It just became way more complex. Not only is supersonic
templating adding new ideas (btw: I like them) but also another
language.
Why would somebody in their right mind use jsp with magnolia and
why do you expect a business to mix jsp and freemarker? That could
be an awful business decision since you now need people to
understand two technologies and not one.
It could indeed; it's only one extra possibility.
again, downloading and installing magnolia 4 rc3, it does not feel
like JSP is the way to go anymore if you do magnolia development.
Maybe I am wrong, would be great to hear from other people as well
who downloaded m4rc3 and does not work for magnolia.
Adding new poeple with freemarker knowledge probably is not easy
either since it is not a very commonly used technology (dice lists
currently 17 positions that mention freemarker in the job
description). It really feels to me that magnolia is abandoning
JSP as the primary templating language and pushing freemarker. As
mentioned before, I am not sure if that is a good message to send
to the outside world.
That is simply not true. As I've said in my previous mail, "you
still have the choice, we still support jsp, and you can still use
any other templating mechanism you fancy by using custom renderers".
yes but as I said before the choice of using JSP does not feel good
anymore
I don't personally see what there is to freak out about. We add
flexibility and choices. That the message might not have been clear
enough is possible, and I'm sure Boris will read this, but reading
your mails, what I feel instead is simply fear of change - so I
hope I calmed those fears down a little ;)
The available modules speak louder than the message. I am not
freaking out. I just feel it's not a very business wise choice. If I
am a new developer to magnolia and has to do an assessment about the
product I would write in my report that the preferred way to develop
is with freemarker. And I would probably insist that all development
in house on top of magnolia is done with freemarker.
I'd like to know if I am the only one that thinks so outside of
magnolia.
Cheers,
-g
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