Re: OFBiz/opentaps as a small business accounting package?

[David E. Jones]

Ian,

About this question:

In my ignorance I kind of assumed that once I had a stable version running it would - like my old QuickBooks 3 - keep on going without too much trouble. Provided I didn't want to start customizing and upgrading that is.

OK. So new security breaches and the necessary patches to block them are to be expected. I have that already with existing Open Source LAMP e-commerce installations. The cost of keeping them secure is not particularly great. What is it about OFBiz that would make maintenance a luxury I might not be able to afford? Please expand.

Unless you automate only a small part of what you do in your company, which is usually the case for small companies, you will HAVE to change the software to meet the needs of the company over time. Unfortunately (for us software peoples) not every company does exactly the same thing. Even more unfortunately is that the same company, large or small, does not do the same thing from one year to the next (or even smaller time periods). Small companies can get away with a single OOTB system because they only automate a very small part of what they do. As companies grow they MUST automate more and more of what they or the company is likely to fail. As far as up-front and ongoing costs go for OFBiz in relation to what you need, you hinted at an answer yourself in this paragraph:

When I first discovered OFBiz a couple of months ago I was thunderstruck. Not only did the e-commerce front-end look every bit as good as the LAMP systems I've been installing, but the whole concept and framework looked like it ought to knock both Microsoft and Sage into a cocked hat.

I say 'looked like' because, of course, I have subsequently discovered from my short time on this list that OFBiz is not yet as fully developed as I first thought it to be.

-David



On Jan 21, 2007, at 9:50 AM, Ian McNulty wrote:

This means something different for everyone. Some companies are able to use OFBiz 100% out of the box, but this is rare and usually means, as mentioned above, that they are only automated a fairly small percentage of what they do. So, the question that will answer your question is: what do you mean by this? In other words, what are the details behind the statement "OFBiz is not yet as fully developed as I first thought it to be"? The answer to that initially and over time, for your company or each of your clients, is the answer to how much work will be necessary to "install" and "support" the system (ie customize and maintain in more honest terms).

Andrew,

























One thing you say at the end of your posting really does concern me:

I'm not looking for anything specific at the moment. Just trying to evaluate current options and keep on top of developments in the hope of offering clients the best, most flexible, most long-term solutions I can find. I checked out GnuCash and SQL Ledger before I discovered OFBiz. They both look fine, as far as small business accounting packages go. You're not going to believe this, but I personally still use QuickBooks 3 which I bought for less than $200 more than 15 years ago to run on Windows 3.1. Since then I've used it to produce budgets, VAT returns and year-end accounts for up to 4 different companies at the same time - some with turnovers around the $1M mark. It has its limitations and idiosyncrasies; but it runs like lightning on XP, has never crashed even once or given me any kind of problems at all (touch wood!!!) So it's going to take something pretty special to persuade me to change to anything else. I started looking at OFBiz as a solution to problems I can see starting to appear on the horizon for clients with established bricks-and-mortar wholesale and retail businesses for whom I have been installing Open Source e-commerce solutions over the past few years. All started with no web presence, all are now finding online sales becoming a significant and in some cases the major part of their businesses. In the beginning, integration with existing in-store EPOS and accounting systems from the likes of MS, Intuit and Sage was not an issue. Now it is quickly becoming the main one as staff spend increasingly longer amounts of time transferring information on paper and re-keying the same data into 3 different systems running in parallel. I have been trying to keep on top of this by installing patches and plugins to get the different systems to talk to each other. But bespoke integration with closed-source, proprietary systems is an arduous and expensive business that few clients can afford. More to the point, it is a very 'tacky' and incomplete solution as it depends largely on staff following rigorously prescribed synchronisation routines to prevent transactions colliding, falling over each other and cancelling each other out. Most staff working at this level will ignore the rules and cut corners if they can, resulting in tangles of inaccurate data which threaten to bring the whole business crashing around everyone's ears. Microsoft and Sage spotted the problems and the opportunities several years ago, and are now offering their own e-commerce clones seamlessly integrated with their own back-ends. I lost my biggest client to them just before Christmas. If I can not offer equivalent backend Open Source integration then it won't be long before I lose all the rest. When I first discovered OFBiz a couple of months ago I was thunderstruck. Not only did the e-commerce front-end look every bit as good as the LAMP systems I've been installing, but the whole concept and framework looked like it ought to knock both Microsoft and Sage into a cocked hat. I say 'looked like' because, of course, I have subsequently discovered from my short time on this list that OFBiz is not yet as fully developed as I first thought it to be. Your analogy with office space is interesting but I'm not entirely convinced it compares like with like. The cost of over-capacity in bricks-and-mortar space is clearly very heavy. The cost of over- capacity in Open Source virtual software space, not necessarily so. On the other hand, the cost of not building into the virtual software space the option for future expansion could well be crippling. It isn't just the cost of new installations and transfer of data. The major cost is staff retraining. People who adapt easily to such things do not usually end up working as warehousemen or office clerks. Your Project-Open link looks like it might be able to do what I need. The use of virtualisation looks very attractive. The web site is clean and crisp. The lack of forums, user groups or mailing lists is not so encouraging. I haven't even scratched the surface yet so I have no idea how it compares with OFBiz. When I do I promise to let you know.

Can you really afford the luxury of servicing
something as large as OfBiz en route?

I was aware that the cost of installing a usable version of OFBiz might not be inconsiderable. But I had no idea that the cost of servicing it could be so high it could be a luxury I might not be able to afford.

Ian




Andrew Sykes wrote:

In my ignorance I kind of assumed that once I had a stable version running it would - like my old QuickBooks 3 - keep on going without too much trouble. Provided I didn't want to start customizing and upgrading that is. OK. So new security breaches and the necessary patches to block them are to be expected. I have that already with existing Open Source LAMP e-commerce installations. The cost of keeping them secure is not particularly great. What is it about OFBiz that would make maintenance a luxury I might not be able to afford? Please expand.

Ian,

It depends on what you're looking for.

If the focus is still a "small business accounting package" as the
subject line says - I know I know, there have been a zillion posts to


For a desktop system, have a look at GnuCash...
http://www.gnucash.org/

For a web based system, SQLLedger seems good and I've heard a few
favourable reports about it...
http://www.sql-ledger.org/


Project:Open stuff...
http://www.project-open.com/
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this one as I've only just
scratched the surface...


OOTB solution sometime in the future versus the cost of implementing

the analogy with office space, you wouldn't buy up half an industrial

one day you'd be bigger than ICI! Even if you factored the cost of

the balance sheet!


to get you there? Can you really afford the luxury of servicing
something as large as OfBiz en route?

- Andrew


On Sun, 2007-01-21 at 09:58 +0000, Ian McNulty wrote:

this thread, so perhaps not. - If it's accounting, two spring to mind... Finally, for a project which *seems* to have a more OOTB focus, although I've really only started looking at it this weekend, take a look at the One of the criteria you should consider is the cost of upgrading from an OfBiz now. Generally if you are at the stage of being an enterprise with more "M" than "S" turnover (SME) and have implemented a lot of bespoke business processes which form part of you USP then OfBiz is a safe bet. If you plan to get to that point one day, it's probably better waiting for that day to come and using something OOTB in the meantime. Consider estate because the business plan you had written in your front room said hiring a van to help with the move, it would still look a bit dodgy on Choosing the right system is about being on top of your overall business strategy, where are you going? how long and how much is it going to take

OK David. Maybe just one last thing.

No more soap-boxing. A simple question for a change :)

David E. Jones wrote:

Looking around the OFBiz documents and such I don't think this distinction is adequately represented, so I added some text similar to the above to the home page of ofbiz.apache.org. It should be public within a few hours, ie whenever the next deployment job runs.

Reading your new text, this stood out:



OK. So maybe those projects might be more what I'm looking for.



Ian

"OFBiz can certainly be used OOTB (out of the box), but if you're looking for something that works really well for that there are many open source projects that do a great job there." I searched a couple of months ago and didn't find anything I thought could do a better job than OFBiz. What other open source projects are you thinking of here?

-David


On Jan 20, 2007, at 3:49 AM, Ian McNulty wrote:

Chris, David, Everybody.





http://www.zen-cart.com/forum

http://forums.oscommerce.com

http://www.ubuntuforums.org/

Yes. I know php is nasty. But that's not the point.

Look at the accessibility and structure of the interface.

All user levels are accommodated.

All find their natural place.





Ian




Chris Howe wrote:

One last thought on the subject before I have my porridge and another lie down ;) I'm wondering if any of you guys have ever taken a good hard look at the osCommerce, Zen Cart or Ubuntu forums? Nearly a quarter of a million members on Ubuntu. 120K on osCommerce. 2,347 and 824 currently active respectively at this very moment as we speak A working model of how to build a user base surely, if nothing else?

Ian,

While I certainly enjoy the analogies, who are you
ultimately suggesting create these lowest common
denominator (LCD) documents?
As has already been mentioned, once you pass that
"aha" moment in OFBiz, it's difficult to understand
why the engineering documentation didn't make sense
the first time around.  3D vector calculus, as you put
it, seems so elementary obvious at that point that
it's difficult to convey it in simpler terms; even
though you remember it not being obvious when you
started.  I don't think it's very time/quality
productive for someone who's passed that "aha" moment
to produce this documentation; at least not without
the aid of an "uninitiated".
If you'd like to be that test subject, I'm sure there
are a mess of people, including myself, that would be
willing to help explain things to you as you make your
way through the concepts, documenting as you go.  But
the POV of the documentation cannot be from someone
who's already gotten the bird off the ground, because
they're not really sure which button they pressed to
make it all seem second nature.


--- Ian McNulty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

David,

I don't get the proposition that there are 100
different pilot roles.

There are many 1,000s  of different destinations.

They all fly planes. They all start off on fixed wing, single

flight-engineering etc.

But it is very basic. The need to understand lift,
drag, how to calculate take off velocities etc. But I doubt if

number is.

So why can't the target be whatever denominators are
common to all pilots?

How to find the door handle and the start button

gonna fly.

Ian




David E. Jones wrote:

Maybe more than a dozen different pilot roles (commercial, fighter, bomber, spotter, etc.). But but there IS a lowest common denominator. engine props. They all need to understand basic navigation, aerodynamics, they start of with 3D vector calculus or need to know what a Reynold's would be top of my list. If they can't find those then they ain't never

On Jan 20, 2007, at 1:25 AM, Ian McNulty wrote:

David,

I can see where you're coming from on this. This

project is better

documented than anything else I've seen in the

field.You yourself

have produced a truly awesome amount of

documentation. I don't know

where you find the time. All are extremely well

written, very clear,

very well laid out. A model of their kind. (No

I'm not sucking up - I

mean it :) So what could possibly be the problem.

I found the Introduction Videos and Diagrams page

you link to here a

couple of days ago myself.

It was whilst working through these videos that

the light bulb went off.

What you're talking us through is a diagram of

the wiring harness of

a jumbo jet.

Essential for the engineers who need to service

it.

Absolutely the last kind of map a pilot wants to

find on his lap.

Know what I mean?

Uh, yeah, that's because it is meant to cover the

framework, not the

applications. The two are very different, change

very differently,

need to be understood by different people in

different ways, etc. My

current estimate is that to produce something

adequate for a "pilot",

given that there are about 100 different "pilot"

roles in OFBiz, would

require many times the effort to produce that the

framework videos

with their diagrams, reference materials,

transcriptions, etc. Right

now I don't have the $500k to get into that... and

the $40k already

spent on the documents which are now PDF-dumped

into the

docs.ofbiz.org site was clearly inadequate,

especially as it is mostly

reference materials (which is why you won't find

how-to stuff in the

reference guides, they are references after all,

just for reference

purposes). The Application Overview for Users is

probably more of what

you're looking for, though that section only

represents maybe 3-5% of

what is in OFBiz right now.

Of course, that's assuming such documents could

even be written in a

way that is close to generally useful. How do I

use it? Well, that

depends on what you want to do... and

unfortunately across a few

different industries that list grows into hundreds

of thousands of

activities...

So, that's the big question with any document: who

is the target

audience? The more specific the answer, the better

the document will

address their needs. But who is the target

audience for OFBiz? ... ?

-David

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