I was not pointing the server comment at you, tim. I guess since I replied you your response that it can take it that way.
Tim Ruppert sent the following on 10/13/2009 10:29 AM: > Yeah - we've got our own and in fact pay for the community ones as > well. Just want to put the best face forward for the project. Not > saying the themes are perfect, but let's start from current and mod from > there. That's at least my vote - one of many people voting. > > Cheers, > Ruppert > > On Oct 13, 2009, at 11:26 AM, BJ Freeman wrote: > >> Forgot one point, if your a company you should be able to support you >> own demo site. Dedicated Servers these days cost about $100. Then you >> can have it any way you want. >> >> BJ Freeman sent the following on 10/13/2009 10:03 AM: >>> This seems a lot to-do about nothing, reference, the default, since if >>> someone wants to demo the demo site they can change the theme. >>> >>> also I think it is mute since so many use the Site and change things >>> when someone else is on they change languages and themes, that it would >>> be theme wars on the Demo site, for all practical purposes. >>> >>> The valid discussion, to me, is the architectures of the themes, not a >>> specific theme, since anyone can create a theme and submit it for >>> inclusion. >>> >>> What themes can support and not support is valuable for those that want >>> to create themes. >>> >>> I would like to see, general support that looks at the browser functions >>> to determine what to present. Like does support javascript if not then >>> server up a basic page. So there would always be a basic text page >>> template for the browser where the user has turned off features >>> >>> Also Themes that address Color blind people and Those of us that have >>> trouble with fonts. >>> The last one really takes on a new dimensions, since have we already >>> found out, some translation cause justification problems >>> >>> My view of current themes is they show what can be done and are good >>> learning tools. >>> >>> >>> >>> Tim Ruppert sent the following on 10/13/2009 9:44 AM: >>>> If you have changes to the theme - submit them or fix them. This theme >>>> has been tested and is in fact used by many people that we work with. >>>> We do not have all of the problems you mentioned. There's NO reason to >>>> start with Flat Grey - use the current theme - with the current design >>>> and fix the issues. >>>> >>>> It wasn't crap when it was put forward, it was tested and used - so >>>> please your best to not insult others as well :) Read Foster's email >>>> for where and why we did what we did and go from there. I'm at >>>> least as >>>> interested as everyone in the community at fixing all of the crap in >>>> OFBiz - as evidenced by the amazing amount of investment in time and >>>> money that's been made by our company. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Ruppert >>>> -- >>>> Tim Ruppert >>>> HotWax Media >>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com >>>> >>>> o:801.649.6594 >>>> f:801.649.6595 >>>> >>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 9:46 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Tim: >>>>> This will probably start a "flame war" (if those things still happen >>>>> :-), but again this is all for what I feel is the betterment of the >>>>> project. Please see my comments inline: >>>>> >>>>> Tim Ruppert wrote: >>>>>> Inline >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Ruppert >>>>>> >>>>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 8:09 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Tim: >>>>>>> I fully understand your point of view and the constraints we all >>>>>>> labor under. Whether the old theme sucks or not is not in question >>>>>>> here. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> First question I have for you is what "guidelines" are you referring >>>>>>> to? >>>>>> Take a look at BizznessTime and then at Flat Grey and let me know >>>>>> when you think each were designed from a look and feel perspective? >>>>>> That's the point here - first impressions of whether or not this >>>>>> project is stale or not. This is why it was developed and it can >>>>>> have a huge impact on the people that see it for the first time. Not >>>>>> to mention that as I said, my customers have custom themes built on >>>>>> BizznessTime and are happy with them ... >>>>>> >>>>> You didn't answer my question. What guidelines? >>>>> I'm not disputing that your customers have nice themes. You, or your >>>>> company probably built them. Good for you! As a service provider, this >>>>> attitude towards the code base works in your favor. As an end-user, >>>>> maybe this approach towards the project code base doesn't work so >>>>> well. Please reconsider. >>>> Right, I'm trying to keep the code base crappy so I have to explain to >>>> more and more people how we could fix it for them. That makes no >>>> sense. >>>> >>>>>>> Secondly, why should a new user have to change a theme in order to >>>>>>> use OFBiz applications. If, as you say its easy to change a theme, >>>>>>> then it should be incumbent on the knowledgeable experienced OFBiz >>>>>>> user to change themes and not the new user. New users have enough on >>>>>>> their plate just learning how the applications work. >>>>>> I'm talking about demo.ofbiz.org having a current looking theme so >>>>>> that when people want to see the application for the first time, >>>>>> they're not asking if we started with the backend design in 2001 and >>>>>> then forgot to update it :) If you guys want that to be a deployment >>>>>> setting for the demo store - I'm happy to do it that way - let's just >>>>>> not act like the old theme is what is making OFBiz happen. >>>>>> >>>>> So am I. Lets talk about the demo site. On a recent visit (2 days ago) >>>>> what I saw was embarrassing and hence my comment about pride of >>>>> ownership. >>>>> >>>>> I'd like to "call you to the carpet" on making "OFBiz happen". How >>>>> many new user's to OFBiz (I'm talking end-users) have been "convinced" >>>>> to adopt based on theme changes? Do you even know? If you can show me >>>>> the numbers, then I will gladly change my tune. >>>> No numbers - but from a sales perspective it's been MUCH better >>>> received >>>> by all new people. Keep in mind, I'm not talking about techies - I'm >>>> talking about business people who will eventually use the applications. >>>> >>>>>>> Thirdly, please don't throw around "its easy" to do something >>>>>>> without siting references. You insult my intelligence and every >>>>>>> other reader on this list by implying that anything concerning >>>>>>> recent releases of OFBiz is "easy". >>>>>> Please Ruth - come on. If you're not sure where the themes are, then >>>>>> please use a browser tool to tell you where the CSS is that drives >>>>>> the theme and tinker with it. If I had the references for you in my >>>>>> hands - I'll lay them out like a towel - but since I didn't, I >>>>>> declined to send you to the wrong place. Me and the other readers >>>>>> (and my employees) dove in on the theme concept and tried our best to >>>>>> come up with something quickly that would make an impact in the >>>>>> release. I think we accomplished that in a big way. If it's not >>>>>> good, then please help to make it better rather than turning back to >>>>>> something that's not pushing forward (on the design front). >>>>>> >>>>> Tim, we are not talking about me. I know how to do this. I've spent >>>>> several years working with all aspects of OFBiz from the front-end CSS >>>>> to writing modifications to the Entity Engine to support database >>>>> field types not supported by OFBiz. I'm talking about new users. >>>> Well that's great- wasn't sure by your message. >>>> >>>>> I have tried to "make it better" by submitting JIRA issues. >>>>> How about if we start over with a design document and a baseline that >>>>> we know works - perhaps the Flat Grey theme, and go forward from >>>>> there. Give me developer/access rights to the code base and I'd gladly >>>>> help out. >>>> Feel free to start that process, but I insist that you start from the >>>> new standard - not the old one. >>>> >>>>>> I'd much rather see these kinks worked out - since we're only talking >>>>>> about CSS - not the magic of the screen widget / form widget, etc. >>>>>> In this case, "easy" means that any web developer in the world that >>>>>> does "Inspect Element" on Safari or anything else - will be able to >>>>>> see where the CSS is - since that's 99% of how these themes are >>>>>> messed with in the first place. >>>>>> >>>>> I agree with you here concerning working out the kinks. Where we >>>>> diverge is: I don't think it is up to end-users to do testing for the >>>>> project. Don't commit code (themes or otherwise) that has not been >>>>> tested. Don't make changes to OFBiz until those changes have been >>>>> tested. Its pretty simple. >>>> Are you insinuating that we do this? I certainly hope not. >>>> >>>>> Again, end-users have enough on their plate just learning the >>>>> applications. And, perhaps more importantly, end-user's for the >>>>> backend applications are not the same web developers you reference >>>>> here. >>>>> >>>>> You obviously see all this from a service provider's point of view and >>>>> not an end-user. Please understand, I don't provide OFBiz development, >>>>> deployment or integration services. I am an advocate for end-users. >>>>> IMO, if we don't get more end-users looking at OFBiz, you might as >>>>> well kiss this project good-bye. >>>> We can agree on that front for sure. I see this from an adoption >>>> standpoint - and that old 1990's theme ain't getting anyone off the mat >>>> to use OFBiz - I can promise you that. >>>> >>>>> Its all about mindshare, and while OFBiz has been good to you and >>>>> HotWax, your attitude is very similar to the "proprietary" mindset of >>>>> some software vendors that shall remain unnamed. >>>>> >>>>> Please take off your service provider hat and look at all this from a >>>>> potential new end-user. >>>> Please put on your I'll dive in and fix these minor issues - instead of >>>> sitting back and being a purist. That's what we do and I hope to see >>>> you do the same. What you're doing on the end user spectrum will >>>> undoubtedly be a big help, but just sitting back or rolling back >>>> doesn't >>>> get the issues resolved. Thanks for submitting bugs - they're all over >>>> the system and we're in there fixing them daily .... >>>> >>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>> Ruth >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast >>>>>>> ruth.hoff...@myofbiz.com >>>>>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: >>>>>>> http://www.myofbiz.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Tim Ruppert wrote: >>>>>>>> We are all working within the constraints of _not_ redesigning the >>>>>>>> entire set of backend applications - which is really what needs to >>>>>>>> be done. The old theme sucks visually - has no spice, doesn't fit >>>>>>>> today's look and feel guidelines AT ALL, looks really old - so I'd >>>>>>>> say from someone who does this day in and day out - you're WAY off >>>>>>>> when it comes to the way that people react to it (be clear, this >>>>>>>> does not talk to using it on a day to day basis). We've been very >>>>>>>> successful in building themes off of Bizzness Time - please are >>>>>>>> reacting in a really positive way. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There is nothing other than a visual change on the BizznessTime >>>>>>>> theme. There are no other extra widgets or the like. it's just a >>>>>>>> reorganization of the data that's there to help give it a >>>>>>>> facelift. I'm not talking to users - I'm talking to you and >>>>>>>> everyone else who has issues with it. Fix it ... or go back to the >>>>>>>> old theme in your own setup - don't doom the rest of us to have to >>>>>>>> go apply first impressions with that really lame setup. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As for the documentation - I'm not sure - checkout Confluence - we >>>>>>>> just dug in and tried to bring the backend apps out of the early >>>>>>>> 2000s instead of letting it sit stagnant. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>> Ruppert >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Tim Ruppert >>>>>>>> HotWax Media >>>>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> o:801.649.6594 >>>>>>>> f:801.649.6595 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 7:10 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hello Tim: >>>>>>>>> If this a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz, then IMO, we >>>>>>>>> are way off the mark. The backend applications where the >>>>>>>>> BiznessTime theme has been applied are designed for end-users who >>>>>>>>> may not and probably do not have any experience with HTML or CSS. >>>>>>>>> Lets not forget who our audience is here. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If the foundation, as you say is so solid (and I have not doubt >>>>>>>>> that it is), then reverting back to a simpler yet more accessible >>>>>>>>> theme should be the way to go. Fancier is not always better. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On another note, could you point me to the end-user documentation >>>>>>>>> covering creating new themes. I'd be happy to try this out and >>>>>>>>> post my findings. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>> Ruth >>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast >>>>>>>>> ruth.hoff...@myofbiz.com >>>>>>>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: >>>>>>>>> http://www.myofbiz.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Tim Ruppert wrote: >>>>>>>>>> We exclusively use the BizznessTime theme with clients because >>>>>>>>>> it's WAY easier to change, skin and adapt to everyone's liking / >>>>>>>>>> look and feel. I think it would be a huge mistake to roll it >>>>>>>>>> back to the Flat Grey as we have not had any of the same problems >>>>>>>>>> once everyone gets over the initial shock of seeing something >>>>>>>>>> different. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> If the community wants to roll it back - then go for it - but it >>>>>>>>>> isn't wise. FIX the problems that you don't like in the >>>>>>>>>> BizznessTime theme, or create one of your own - it's easy to do - >>>>>>>>>> this is a much more solid foundation to build on then the old >>>>>>>>>> (and looking really old) theme that's been in there since the >>>>>>>>>> beginning. Have any of you tried to edit the CSS to make any >>>>>>>>>> changes that might not make it so "large"? It should be pretty >>>>>>>>>> easy with this setup. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Anyways, think on it and do what you will do, but remember this >>>>>>>>>> is still a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz. I'd leave >>>>>>>>>> this in place and change it to the ugly, ugly in your own >>>>>>>>>> installations before I wanted to go back to Flay Grey as a sales >>>>>>>>>> tool .... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>> Ruppert >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Tim Ruppert >>>>>>>>>> HotWax Media >>>>>>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> o:801.649.6594 >>>>>>>>>> f:801.649.6595 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 3:40 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi Hans, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> So far, >>>>>>>>>>> * it seems that most people find things too large and prefer to >>>>>>>>>>> zoom out. >>>>>>>>>>> * it seems also that not much specific bugs were reported, and >>>>>>>>>>> those reported should be easily fixed (not quite sure though...) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I repeat myself about where to report about this subject : >>>>>>>>>>> create a subtask at >>>>>>>>>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-2398 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> In his 1st reply Chris Snow suggested a change. But I'm not sure >>>>>>>>>>> it's enough for doing the same thing as a zoom out >>>>>>>>>>> Maybe we could ask Ryan Foster if it's possble to shrink the >>>>>>>>>>> size (of everything ) else we may vote for the "return of Flat >>>>>>>>>>> Grey" as default >>>>>>>>>>> theme. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> What do you people think ? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Jacques >>>>>>>>>>> PS : Hans I saw you opened a subtask for the field size issue, >>>>>>>>>>> thanks! >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> From: "Hans Bakker" <mailingl...@antwebsystems.com >>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:mailingl...@antwebsystems.com>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sure the Business theme looks good but..... >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The general problem is that the characters, fields and actually >>>>>>>>>>>> everything is far too big....If i specify a field to be 2 >>>>>>>>>>>> characters, at >>>>>>>>>>>> least 5 fit in.... >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> So set the default to flat_gray in general properties is >>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps better. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>> Hans >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 2009-10-12 at 16:19 +0200, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness Time >>>>>>>>>>>>> as default theme. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you use it? >>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you change for another theme ? >>>>>>>>>>>>> Which one fo you prefer? >>>>>>>>>>>>> Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Jacques >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> Antwebsystems.com <http://Antwebsystems.com>: Quality OFBiz >>>>>>>>>>>> services for competitive rates >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >> >> -- >> BJ Freeman >> http://www.businessesnetwork.com/automation >> http://bjfreeman.elance.com >> http://www.linkedin.com/profile?viewProfile=&key=1237480&locale=en_US&trk=tab_pro >> >> Systems Integrator. >> > -- BJ Freeman http://www.businessesnetwork.com/automation http://bjfreeman.elance.com http://www.linkedin.com/profile?viewProfile=&key=1237480&locale=en_US&trk=tab_pro Systems Integrator.
