I'll let you have the last on this, as we are in complete agreement on
those points. You are right about one thing definitely, a lot of your
very valid concerns about the ecommerce web store OOTB have been lost
in the noise.
Anil and his group (of which I have been a part of), have been making
small, incremental improvements to the ecommerce front-end, but I
would love to see the kind of awesome community collaboration that
drove the 9.04 release. Between the design collaboration with Ean and
his guys, and Hans, Jacques, Bruno and so many others pitching in on
the dev side, we ended up with a public facing site, documentation
site, nightly builds and logs site, and demo application site that was
cohesive, consistent, modern, and relevant. People took notice, and
they were impressed. In fact, the only thing missing from all this
was a polished, re-designed, store front demo.
We have beat this to death. I think we as a community need to say now
let's pull the trigger. Redesign the ecommerce front-end. Make a big
change. Make people notice.
To quote Forrest Gump (in my best rural Alabama southern drawl): "And
that's really all I got to say about that."
Ryan Foster
HotWax Media
801.671.0769
ryan.fos...@hotwaxmedia.com
On Oct 15, 2009, at 10:24 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
Hi Ryan:
Not that I need to get in the last word...
I like your tag lines! Your design points are valid and, for what it
is worth, are now new data points for my consideration going forward.
I'm all about innovation. My original point was not that innovation,
progress or change for that matter isn't good. My original point -
which got lost in the noise - was that building something and then
deploying that "something" without thorough testing is not good. In
fact, the consequences of doing that in this very competitive
market, could be disastrous. First impressions whether we like it or
not, are lasting. And when seemingly simple things don't work as one
would expect - for example on the ecommerce web store OOTB - that is
not good.
Anyhow, I think we beat this to death. Thanks for the discussion.
Best Regards,
Ruth
Ryan Foster wrote:
Inline...
Ryan Foster
HotWax Media
801.671.0769
ryan.fos...@hotwaxmedia.com
On Oct 14, 2009, at 3:12 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
Hello Ryan:
Thanks so much for taking the time to inform the list. I
personally think that front-end website design and implementation
is far more difficult to master then is commonly acknowledged. I
applaud your efforts. At no time was I trying to disparage or
dismiss any of the OFBiz work that you or your colleagues have
contributed.
No offense taken. Like I said, I was just trying to offer some
additional insight into the discussion.
Please see my other comments inline:
Ryan Foster wrote:
Since my colleagues and I were largely responsible for the
initial design of BizznessTime, which borrows very heavily from
Brainfood's public facing site design (thanks guys!), I feel a
certain amount of obligation to defend my position. Let me first
start off by saying thank you all very much for this discussion
on user interface in general and for the feedback on the
BizznessTime theme. I sometimes feel like a lone wolf in a sea
of developers immensely more talented than me when it comes to
back-end programming, so I think a small amount of front-end
discussion is refreshing. I take a huge amount of pride in my
work, and I welcome any and all feedback, positive or negative,
that will allow me to enhance the user experience
IMO, the "theme" concept is an excellent addition to OFBiz.
Secondly, many of the key elements of the design were clearly and
carefully thought out, and are based on the work, research, and
testing of respected organizations and individuals in user
experience and interaction design:
Obviously the design was clearly and carefully thought out. That
was never in question. Again, I applaud your efforts. Thank you.
In regards to the school of thought that all of the important
content should be "above the fold" and that users shouldn't be
required, do not like to scroll, will not scroll, etc; there has
been extensive research that tends to suggest that this school of
thought is outdated. Jacob Nielsen discussed this back in 1997
(!). See the following links for support:
Thanks for the references. I have not seen any of these
specifically, although I have seen other statistical reports that
are all over the map as far as analyzing results. Just an FYI:
All of the content writers and site designers that I work with
insist that best practice is to have the most compelling
information above the fold. These people are in the trenches day-
in and day-out and are not selling a service. Just another data
point.
Yes, important information should near the top of the page, I am
not disputing this. What I am saying is "There is no fold", and
there hasn't been one for quite some time. This term was ported
from newspaper print design in an attempt to explain a new medium
and technology in terms that were familiar to designers entering
this new media arena. But the internet is not new anymore, and
between Rich Media enabled mobile phones, integrated/on demand
television, kiosk displays, laptops, and 42-inch cinema screen
monitors, it is simply not relevant to modern web design and
development anymore. Honestly, between online websites, news
portals, cross-channel aggregation, bloggers, and RSS feeds, I am
not sure that newspapers even use the term "above the fold"
anymore! :)
FYI: Last time I checked, content writing and web design were
service based businesses. I am also currently closing out a 15
hour day of designing/building websites and writing content for my
clients, so I think that qualifies me as being in the trenches.
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9712a.html
http://blog.clicktale.com/2006/12/23/unfolding-the-fold/
http://blog.clicktale.com/2007/10/05/clicktale-scrolling-research-report-v20-part-1-visibility-and-scroll-reach/
http://blog.clicktale.com/2007/12/04/clicktale-scrolling-research-report-v20-part-2-visitor-attention-and-web-page-exposure/
http://www.uie.com/brainsparks/2006/08/02/utilizing-the-cut-off-look-to-encourage-users-to-scroll/
http://www.boxesandarrows.com/view/blasting-the-myth-of
Next, as far as the applications drop down menu, this concept is
again based on modern web trends and current research. Companies
such as Target, Walmart, Microsoft, OfficeMax, OfficeDepot, EMC,
MTV, Ruby on Rails, etc. use so called "Mega Dropdowns" in their
sites and applications. Our friends in the community over at
Alexander Interactive have been cited numerous times for the
navigation they developed for ActionEnvelope. I agree that
showing the menu on hover rather than on click would be an
enhancement, but I also don't think that having to click is a bad
thing either. Again, see the following resources:
It remains to be seen just how successful the "Mega Dropdowns"
are. Just because Target, Microsoft and Walmart use them, doesn't
mean they work in terms of site usability. That is not to say that
some menu dropdowns are not useful. I use them often.
I would argue that a better example of a site to emulate is that
of a company that does all of its business on the Web - like
Amazon. Yes, they use dropdowns, but they are clearly marked as
being dropdowns and not obscured by other site elements.
I wouldn't so easily discount the millions of dollars that these
sites generate just because they have a brick-and-mortar presence.
But that is not really the point. You will never make any progress
if you just copy someone else's model.
"Don't emulate - innovate. Then test."
Oooh, that sounds kind of catchy. Is it too early to copyright
that? ;)
Actually a more appropriate A/B phrase would be:
"Emulate. Innovate. Test."
There we go, that sounds more like a tagline...
http://www.uipattern.com/mega-drop-downs/
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/mega-dropdown-menus.html
http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2009/03/30/mega-drop-down-menus/
http://37signals.com/svn/posts/1647-mega-drop-down-navigation-at-basecamp-and-rails-guides-site
http://guides.rubyonrails.org/
Finally, as far as the statement "lets not forget who our
audience is", I am acutely aware of who are audience is. We have
developed several client branded themes based on the BizznessTime
theme, and have received very positive feedback. When our
clients are happy, I am happy. You are right that fancier isn't
always better, there is research suggesting that doesn't matter.
It may not be better, but people think that it is:
You have taken the out-of-the-box themes and branded them. You
were able to do that because you know how to modify and change
themes. A new user (one who downloads a nightly build) will not
know how to do this. That is my target audience.
I think that is where our disconnect is. That might be your target
audience, but that is generally not mine, my colleague's, or my
employer's target audience. The decision maker in an enterprise is
usually not the person who downloads a nightly build. My focus and
intent is to design an application that a CEO, CTO, Operations
Manager, etc. can look at and feel confident that his/her 10, 100,
1000, etc. employees will be able to comfortably and effectively
use it, and that it will power a site that his/her (hopefully)
millions of customers will use and return to consistently. They
are the ones that will ultimately drive the support and
distribution of OFBiz.
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/indefenseofeyecandy
Big fan of alistapart.com. Can't go wrong following that lead.
http://www.consumerwebwatch.org/news/report3_credibilityresearch/stanfordPTL.pdf
http://ist.psu.edu/faculty_pages/jjansen/academic/pres/chi2007/jansen_branding_of_search_engines.pdf
http://sigchi.org/chi97/proceedings/paper/nt.htm
http://www.experiencedynamics.com/sites/default/files/spillers-emotiondesign-proceedings.pdf
I do agree with many points that have been made so far, and
again, I appreciate the feedback. The font-size is a little too
big. The padding in and around the inputs and submit buttons can
be dialed back a bit. I am working on a patch right now that
incorporates this feedback, as well as additional feedback and
discoveries from the themes we have built based on the original
BizznessTime theme.
I will continue to give feedback as long as you listen.
And again, thanks for your efforts.
Ruth
Keep it coming Ruth. I appreciate you taking the time.
I apologize for the very long-winded email, but I just wanted to
give the community some insight into my thought process and
design methodologies. I hope this helps the discussion.
Thanks,
Ryan Foster
HotWax Media
801.671.0769
ryan.fos...@hotwaxmedia.com
On Oct 13, 2009, at 8:09 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
Hi Tim:
I fully understand your point of view and the constraints we all
labor under. Whether the old theme sucks or not is not in
question here.
First question I have for you is what "guidelines" are you
referring to?
Secondly, why should a new user have to change a theme in order
to use OFBiz applications. If, as you say its easy to change a
theme, then it should be incumbent on the knowledgeable
experienced OFBiz user to change themes and not the new user.
New users have enough on their plate just learning how the
applications work.
Thirdly, please don't throw around "its easy" to do something
without siting references. You insult my intelligence and every
other reader on this list by implying that anything concerning
recent releases of OFBiz is "easy".
Regards,
Ruth
----------------------------------------------------
Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
ruth.hoff...@myofbiz.com
Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: http://www.myofbiz.com
Tim Ruppert wrote:
We are all working within the constraints of _not_ redesigning
the entire set of backend applications - which is really what
needs to be done. The old theme sucks visually - has no spice,
doesn't fit today's look and feel guidelines AT ALL, looks
really old - so I'd say from someone who does this day in and
day out - you're WAY off when it comes to the way that people
react to it (be clear, this does not talk to using it on a day
to day basis). We've been very successful in building themes
off of Bizzness Time - please are reacting in a really positive
way.
There is nothing other than a visual change on the BizznessTime
theme. There are no other extra widgets or the like. it's
just a reorganization of the data that's there to help give it
a facelift. I'm not talking to users - I'm talking to you and
everyone else who has issues with it. Fix it ... or go back to
the old theme in your own setup - don't doom the rest of us to
have to go apply first impressions with that really lame setup.
As for the documentation - I'm not sure - checkout Confluence -
we just dug in and tried to bring the backend apps out of the
early 2000s instead of letting it sit stagnant.
Cheers,
Ruppert
--
Tim Ruppert
HotWax Media
http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
o:801.649.6594
f:801.649.6595
On Oct 13, 2009, at 7:10 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
Hello Tim:
If this a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz, then IMO,
we are way off the mark. The backend applications where the
BiznessTime theme has been applied are designed for end-users
who may not and probably do not have any experience with HTML
or CSS. Lets not forget who our audience is here.
If the foundation, as you say is so solid (and I have not
doubt that it is), then reverting back to a simpler yet more
accessible theme should be the way to go. Fancier is not
always better.
On another note, could you point me to the end-user
documentation covering creating new themes. I'd be happy to
try this out and post my findings.
Regards,
Ruth
----------------------------------------------------
Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
ruth.hoff...@myofbiz.com
Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: http://www.myofbiz.com
Tim Ruppert wrote:
We exclusively use the BizznessTime theme with clients
because it's WAY easier to change, skin and adapt to
everyone's liking / look and feel. I think it would be a
huge mistake to roll it back to the Flat Grey as we have not
had any of the same problems once everyone gets over the
initial shock of seeing something different.
If the community wants to roll it back - then go for it - but
it isn't wise. FIX the problems that you don't like in the
BizznessTime theme, or create one of your own - it's easy to
do - this is a much more solid foundation to build on then
the old (and looking really old) theme that's been in there
since the beginning. Have any of you tried to edit the CSS
to make any changes that might not make it so "large"? It
should be pretty easy with this setup.
Anyways, think on it and do what you will do, but remember
this is still a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz. I'd
leave this in place and change it to the ugly, ugly in your
own installations before I wanted to go back to Flay Grey as
a sales tool ....
Cheers,
Ruppert
--
Tim Ruppert
HotWax Media
http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
o:801.649.6594
f:801.649.6595
On Oct 13, 2009, at 3:40 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
Hi Hans,
So far,
* it seems that most people find things too large and prefer
to zoom out.
* it seems also that not much specific bugs were reported,
and those reported should be easily fixed (not quite sure
though...)
I repeat myself about where to report about this subject :
create a subtask at https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-2398
In his 1st reply Chris Snow suggested a change. But I'm not
sure it's enough for doing the same thing as a zoom out
Maybe we could ask Ryan Foster if it's possble to shrink the
size (of everything ) else we may vote for the "return of
Flat Grey" as default
theme.
What do you people think ?
Jacques
PS : Hans I saw you opened a subtask for the field size
issue, thanks!
From: "Hans Bakker" <mailingl...@antwebsystems.com <mailto:mailingl...@antwebsystems.com
>>
Sure the Business theme looks good but.....
The general problem is that the characters, fields and
actually
everything is far too big....If i specify a field to be 2
characters, at
least 5 fit in....
So set the default to flat_gray in general properties is
perhaps better.
Regards,
Hans
On Mon, 2009-10-12 at 16:19 +0200, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
Hi,
I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness
Time as default theme.
Do you use it?
Do you change for another theme ?
Which one fo you prefer?
Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another?
Thanks
Jacques
--
Antwebsystems.com <http://Antwebsystems.com>: Quality OFBiz
services for competitive rates
