David: You may not remember me, but we met when you worked with Stephen Loosli. I think he will remember me too-- I helped him try to raise venture capital through Wayne Brown Institute.
I think Jacques has some good points. As a newcomer to the project (but who has watched it from the outside for several years now), I think the project currently has a learning curve that is both intimidating to new users, and perhaps much higher than it needs to be. Open source projects really only grow and flower when they get a critical mass of users and developers that can take over the bulk of the development effort. Compare NetBSD to Linux, for example. One uses the cathedral model, the other the bazaar. The more users you have, the more developers you get (although that is never a 1:1 proposition). Open source is all about "scratching your own itch", so the more users you have, the more itches (of all varieties) you have that need scratching, and the faster the project develops, though still perhaps never in the direction any one person wants. But you also make some interesting observations, that I would like to comment on. On Mon, 2010-01-18 at 14:15 -0600, David E Jones wrote: > I think you're right Jacques, though I also think it's a natural and > maybe not a bad thing. Agreed-- human behavior is a natural thing, and probably not bad, though often problematic if we have not properly incented or encouraged the behavior we want or expect. > Most people in the world aren't investing in much right now, even those > who have time and/or money to invest, because they don't expect much > of a return on the investment. Any successful investor will tell you > that it's best to get into things when it is cheap to invest (ie when > others don't expect a return and aren't investing), and then get out > when the market is great (when others do expect a return and are > investing a lot). However, the same people will often fail to > recognize that such conditions are not only impossible to predict in > the future, but also impossible to recognize in the present, and they > further fail to recognize that the fact that they were able to invest > in a low market and get out when the market picked up was probably > just the luck of timing. Just ask any honest economist (if you can > find one!)... they can't even accurately analyze the present, let > alone predict the future... even if they are asked to every day. Which means that this is the best time (economically, on the macro level) to invest, right? Or perhaps (on the micro level) the reason people aren't investing is that they are having a hard time seeing the potential payoff in whatever micro-environment you are looking at, including OFBiz. The CPI was down 0.4% in 2009, the biggest loss since about 1955 (before I was born). Yet our business was up over 10%. Best Buy was up over 25%. People are spending money-- just not where they can't see or expect an immediate return. > Anyway, the point of all of that is that yes there isn't as much > activity in OFBiz right now. I think this is natural given that most > end-user organizations have pulled back their budgets significantly. > That makes sense because the sectors where OFBiz has been strongest > (at least from my experience) are getting hit really hard right now > and many companies are not just cutting back, but totally failing. > End-user organizations have always been about 90% of my work, but are > now down to 0%... and I haven't designed or built anything for one in > almost a year now. Fortunately there are other types of companies out > there, but one way or another the demand for OFBiz is WAY down as the > industries and sizes of businesses it serves are hit so hard. I was tempted to pull the trigger on OFBiz a year or two ago, but was quoted $10,000 just to customize it for our company, and it was not at all clear to me 1) what I would get for that sum, and 2) how long it would take. That is a hard proposition to sell to your management team. > From the perspective of the project what does this matter? Unlike a > company a non-profit community-driven open source project has no > liabilities and there is no way it can just disappear (unless no one > is using it, ie it falls into irrelevancy). Even if somehow the ASF > failed to get adequate donations of money or server time to keep > hosting the project, it could be hosted elsewhere, or even turn into > some crazy peer managed ecosystem using distributed git repositories > (some people would love that, but I think it would be a nightmare for > both contributors and users). Irrelevancy is the risk, as you point out. The best software in the world goes nowhere if no one uses it. As as Microsoft has shown for years, crappy software rules the world, if everyone uses it. > In any case, the worst case scenario is that the project slows down a > little bit. If we're lucky people won't lose too much hope and will > continue to invest in open source projects like OFBiz, which is really > an investment that developers do in hopes of getting more and better > work in the future. If people don't feel much hope for that then > chances are they won't invest as much, and maybe just the hobbyists > who want to develop neat stuff will be contributing. Unless the slowdown is an indication of a project getting too heavy to support its own weight. I hope that isn't the case, but if "free" isn't a draw in a bad economy, that may be an indicator of a more serious problem. Asking developers to contribute in the hopes of future work is putting the cart before the horse, IMHO. Instead, offer a product that gives an immediate return without cost, and new users will come in. Once in, they will need to scratch their own itch, which results in further development of discrete additions/functions funded by businesses that need them. They would rather build an integrated solution onto OFBiz, than scab a proprietary solution onto the outside somewhere and deal with data import/export. > Sooner or later things will of course pick up, and then we'll be back > to complaints about too much going into the project instead > complaints about not enough. On the other hand, given an infinite > potential universe of things people might want to see in OFBiz, there > will ALWAYS be complaints about things missing that certain people > would like to see, or things organized better for their current > requirements, or wishes for free help instead of peer collaboration. If the framework develops in a way that unnecessary features and complexity can be safely ignored by newbies, they will still use it. If they feel overwhelmed, they won't. There is a reason that Linux and OpenOffice are widely used, while TeX and GIMP are not. Easy-to-use distributions, and familiar user interfaces make all the difference. By the same token, cars (and software) are sold by test driving. If it isn't easy and comfortable to drive, it isn't easy to sell. We all hate the VCR that is so complicated, we can't have forgotten how to set the clock. OFBiz looks to me like a hot rod project with a great drive train, fat tires, and great cornering, but no seats yet (let alone seat belts, widows, etc). You put a bucket upside down behind the wheel and say "try it out, you can trim out the interior any way you want, for a fee". You may get some buyers, but that is definitely the hard way to sell a car. > Oh well, I guess enough pontificating for now, especially since I'm no > pontiff. > -David Don't get me wrong, I think OFBiz is a great project. But it tends toward massive complexity that may be drowning its initial or perceived utility, at least OOTB. I think OFBiz has the best data model I have ever seen. The cost of that is complexity. OFBiz has nearly 1000 tables, OpenERP less than 200 IIRC. That makes it hard to get your head around. Simple things like importing standard CSR leads seem unnecessarily complex-- parties, organizations, addresses and phones all in SEPARATE tables. While I understand the value, that flexibility comes at a cost. Having said all that, I have just discovered the documentation at: http://demo.ofbiz.org/cmssite/cms/APACHE_OFBIZ_HTML which appears promising in organization, but is not written or translated by native English speakers. I LOVE the fact that it is incorporated right into the distributed source code, so up to date (theoretically) with the distribution. If I could suggest some priorities, they would be as follows: 1) Make good documentation that is easy to find (part of the system is great). Index it and cross-link it extensively. Most important, start with a gentle primer on how to kick the tires and start to use the system. 2) Create a setup process that makes it easy to customize for a new user to get started, with its own process flow. I'm thinking a turbo-tax type wizard that steps you through the process. Maybe 1) load demo data to demo (but not to start real use); 2) configure the system (root app, ports, etc); 3) load company data from various sources (a spreadsheet for employees, a text file of customers, a list of GL accounts, etc). 3) Show off some features for an immediate and perceptible return. Maybe an inventory dashboard or something. Print some invoices, show outstanding purchase orders, or SOMETHING that makes the user say OK, now THAT I can use immediately. But as you correctly point out, suggestions are cheap, it's helping that makes things happen. I'd love to take you to lunch and see how I can help. We are a small company, without a huge budget, but we do have some, and I would like to help make the project better. Perhaps we can bring some accounting and business management experience to the project. Drop me a note, I'm in Salt Lake City and would like to see you again if you are still in the vicinity somewhere. > > > On Jan 18, 2010, at 11:48 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: > > > And then, those that invested much, slowly invest less... > > > > Jacques > > > > From: "BJ Freeman" <bjf...@free-man.net> > >> The missing element is manpower. > >> Get lots of great Ideas but not many contributors > >> > >> Axel Van Noten sent the following on 1/18/2010 6:58 AM: > >>> > >>> Thanks, I learned a lot. > >>> > >>> Still, I'm a little bit disappointed about the overall documentation. > >>> Would it be possible to: > >>> > >>> 1) have it organised by release, > >>> 2) link to it immediatly from the documentation buton (on > >>> ofbiz.apache.org), or the help button in the application, > >>> 3) have a clearer structure (per release) like: > >>> > >>> Getting Started with OFBiz > >>> OFBiz End User Documentation > >>> OFBiz Reference Manual > >>> OFBiz Technical Guide > >>> OFBiz Tools and Utilities Guide > >>> ... > >>> > >>> I know its easy to criticise, but I believe the project would gain a lot > >>> just by changing these links and making a different hierarchy. > >>> > >>> Kind regards, > >>> Axel > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> From BJ Freeman <bjf...@free-man.net> > >>> Subject Re: OFBiz data load > >>> Date Thu, 14 Jan 2010 19:29:38 GMT > >>> http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBENDUSER/OFBiz%27s+Data+File+Tools > >>> here is a good link for a lot of help > >>> http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/FAQ+-+Tips+-+Tricks+-+Cookbook+-+HowTo > >>> http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/Handling+of+External+data > >>> > >>> Juan Pablo sent the following on 1/14/2010 8:42 AM: > >>>> Hi Axel. > >>>> > >>>> 1) > >>>> http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBENDUSER/OFBiz+End+User+Docs+Home > >>>> http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBTECH/Home > >>>> > >>>> 2) http://ofbiz.markmail.org/ > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 8:30 AM, axel van noten > >>>> <axelvanno...@hotmail.com>wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Hi > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> I've been installing OFBiz and looking for the following information: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> 1) Where is the primary point can I find the most update documentation? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> The documentation buton on the OFBiz website and the help button in the > >>>>> application are both bringing me to the cwiki.apache site. But there > >>>>> seems > >>>>> to be no clear structure nor a primary point where I can turn to for > >>>>> manuals > >>>>> and documentation. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> 2) is there a possibility to perform a text search on this mailing list? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> 3) I'm trying to load a product database into OFBiz. What would be the > >>>>> appropriate way to do so? Is this documented somewhere? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks for your help! > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Kind regards > >>>>> > >>>>> Axel > >>>>> > >>>>> _________________________________________________________________ > >>>>> Keep your friends updated�even when you�re not signed in. > >>>>> > >>>>> http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/see-it-in-action/social-network-basics.aspx?ocid=PID23461::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-xm:SI_SB_5:092010 > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Windows Live: Make it easier for your friends to see what you’re up to on > >>> Facebook. > >>> _________________________________________________________________ > >>> Windows Live: Make it easier for your friends to see what you’re up to on > >>> Facebook. > >>> http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/see-it-in-action/social-network-basics.aspx?ocid=PID23461::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-xm:SI_SB_2:092009 > > > > -- Matt Warnock <mwarn...@ridgecrestherbals.com> RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc.
