I woke up with a lot of text to read here in Brussels. I was about to make a detailed answer on your "How would you like things to work?" when I found out somebody linked ofbiz.apache.org 'Documentation' to a page I haven't seen before. I'm gonna end up believing in Santa Claus again! I would have started to order by release like the examples below - there must be a reason why people are ordering by release - :
Windows http://www.microsoft.com/enable/products/docs/default.aspx Apache http http://httpd.apache.org/docs/ Derby (guess some Armonk(NY) based IT company had a hand in this one) http://db.apache.org/derby/manuals/index.html (couldn't check Oracle because the link is broken :-) - way to go Lary! - : http://www.oracle.com/technology/documentation/index.html ) Nevertheless it is looking really neat compared with where it came from. I'll be traveling the next three weeks, but I will certainly try to update something if I come across. Have a nice day, Axel > Subject: Re: OFBiz data load - Documentation > From: d...@me.com > Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 19:38:52 -0600 > To: user@ofbiz.apache.org > > > On Jan 18, 2010, at 5:17 PM, Axel Van Noten wrote: > > > > > I'm an economist, and I don't believe I can analyse the present. > > That's good. Then you have some understanding of market forces and > motivations. The trick is how to get people to do things, and on top of that > how to get them to work with others to do things. With code there are lots of > reasons to collaborate, and some of the nature of code forces people to > collaborate if they want to work on similar things. With documentation there > is not only a problem with people finding reasons to work on it and > contribute things, but even more there is a problem of getting people to > collaborate to better organize things and reduce duplication of effort. > > > I don't see how I can help to change the structure of the documentation. If > > I can edit the cwiki I'be glad to change the hierarchy as proposed. > > Ironically one of the places with the least collaboration is in organizing > things. Everyone who works on it seems to come in and impose a top-down > structure and start (but usually not finish) putting things in that > structure, or they go bottom up and start organizing things and grouping > similar things. With the second approach there is also rarely finishing, but > at least the progress can be somewhat cumulative. > > You can certainly change things. We have an open space that anyone with an > account can modify: > > http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ > > If you're going to go with the top-down approach I mentioned above, I'd > recommend doing it in a series of pages that point to other pages rather than > changing the actual hierarchy (I'm actually rather surprised that with so > many programmers about people haven't done more of this approach). > > There are spaces that don't allow just anyone to edit them, including the > end-user and technical documentation spaces: > > http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBENDUSER > http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBTECH > > The maverick nature of documentation so far clearly shows here... as there is > a lot to be desired in terms of volume and polish of the documentation. To > see even more of the maverick nature of doc efforts, you can also look around > at the various external sites with documentation on them. > > > If it will never change, so be it. I just believe it's a pity of this work, > > people getting started and not finding the f****** manual. > > Well, to start with try this page (if you haven't already): > > http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBADMIN/OFBiz+Documentation+Index > > Of course, even there you'll notice that it is heavy on technical > documentation. > > I guess in general there just isn't as much end-user documentation, if that's > what you're looking for, and what there is tends to be scattered about in the > open space (ie the confluence/display/OFBIZ URL above). > > BTW, my opinion on how end-user documentation should be organized is by > business process. This would look something like the structure here: > > http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBREQDES/Universal+Business+Process+Library+Index > > I've been trying to find time to get back to this and add an overlap analysis > to the process stories. That overlap analysis would basically end up as an > process-organized overview of where to find things in the applications, > though it wouldn't be any sort of complete description of how to use things > and what things mean. > > Anyway, that's an overview of what's there and some ideas about moving > forward. That said, how would you like things to work and how are they > different from what's around now? > > -David > > > > > >> Subject: Re: OFBiz data load - Documentation > >> From: d...@me.com > >> Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 14:15:45 -0600 > >> To: user@ofbiz.apache.org > >> > >> > >> I think you're right Jacques, though I also think it's a natural and maybe > >> not a bad thing. > >> > >> Most people in the world aren't investing in much right now, even those > >> who have time and/or money to invest, because they don't expect much of a > >> return on the investment. Any successful investor will tell you that it's > >> best to get into things when it is cheap to invest (ie when others don't > >> expect a return and aren't investing), and then get out when the market is > >> great (when others do expect a return and are investing a lot). However, > >> the same people will often fail to recognize that such conditions are not > >> only impossible to predict in the future, but also impossible to recognize > >> in the present, and they further fail to recognize that the fact that they > >> were able to invest in a low market and get out when the market picked up > >> was probably just the luck of timing. Just ask any honest economist (if > >> you can find one!)... they can't even accurately analyze the present, let > >> alone predict the future... even if they are asked to every day. > >> > >> Anyway, the point of all of that is that yes there isn't as much activity > >> in OFBiz right now. I think this is natural given that most end-user > >> organizations have pulled back their budgets significantly. That makes > >> sense because the sectors where OFBiz has been strongest (at least from my > >> experience) are getting hit really hard right now and many companies are > >> not just cutting back, but totally failing. End-user organizations have > >> always been about 90% of my work, but are now down to 0%... and I haven't > >> designed or built anything for one in almost a year now. Fortunately there > >> are other types of companies out there, but one way or another the demand > >> for OFBiz is WAY down as the industries and sizes of businesses it serves > >> are hit so hard. > >> > >> From the perspective of the project what does this matter? Unlike a > >> company a non-profit community-driven open source project has no > >> liabilities and there is no way it can just disappear (unless no one is > >> using it, ie it falls into irrelevancy). Even if somehow the ASF failed to > >> get adequate donations of money or server time to keep hosting the > >> project, it could be hosted elsewhere, or even turn into some crazy peer > >> managed ecosystem using distributed git repositories (some people would > >> love that, but I think it would be a nightmare for both contributors and > >> users). > >> > >> In any case, the worst case scenario is that the project slows down a > >> little bit. If we're lucky people won't lose too much hope and will > >> continue to invest in open source projects like OFBiz, which is really an > >> investment that developers do in hopes of getting more and better work in > >> the future. If people don't feel much hope for that then chances are they > >> won't invest as much, and maybe just the hobbyists who want to develop > >> neat stuff will be contributing. > >> > >> Sooner or later things will of course pick up, and then we'll be back to > >> complaints about too much going into the project instead of complaints > >> about not enough. On the other hand, given an infinite potential universe > >> of things people might want to see in OFBiz, there will ALWAYS be > >> complaints about things missing that certain people would like to see, or > >> things organized better for their current requirements, or wishes for free > >> help instead of peer collaboration. > >> > >> Oh well, I guess enough pontificating for now, especially since I'm no > >> pontiff. > >> > >> -David > >> > >> > >> > >> On Jan 18, 2010, at 11:48 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: > >> > >>> And then, those that invested much, slowly invest less... > >>> > >>> Jacques > >>> > >>> From: "BJ Freeman" <bjf...@free-man.net> > >>>> The missing element is manpower. > >>>> Get lots of great Ideas but not many contributors. > >>>> > >>>> Axel Van Noten sent the following on 1/18/2010 6:58 AM: > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks, I learned a lot. > >>>>> > >>>>> Still, I'm a little bit disappointed about the overall documentation. > >>>>> Would it be possible to: > >>>>> > >>>>> 1) have it organised by release, > >>>>> 2) link to it immediatly from the documentation buton (on > >>>>> ofbiz.apache.org), or the help button in the application, > >>>>> 3) have a clearer structure (per release) like: > >>>>> > >>>>> Getting Started with OFBiz > >>>>> OFBiz End User Documentation > >>>>> OFBiz Reference Manual > >>>>> OFBiz Technical Guide > >>>>> OFBiz Tools and Utilities Guide > >>>>> ... > >>>>> > >>>>> I know its easy to criticise, but I believe the project would gain a > >>>>> lot just by changing these links and making a different hierarchy. > >>>>> > >>>>> Kind regards, > >>>>> Axel > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> From BJ Freeman <bjf...@free-man.net> > >>>>> Subject Re: OFBiz data load > >>>>> Date Thu, 14 Jan 2010 19:29:38 GMT > >>>>> http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBENDUSER/OFBiz%27s+Data+File+Tools > >>>>> here is a good link for a lot of help > >>>>> http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/FAQ+-+Tips+-+Tricks+-+Cookbook+-+HowTo > >>>>> http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBIZ/Handling+of+External+data > >>>>> > >>>>> Juan Pablo sent the following on 1/14/2010 8:42 AM: > >>>>>> Hi Axel. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> 1) > >>>>>> http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBENDUSER/OFBiz+End+User+Docs+Home > >>>>>> http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBTECH/Home > >>>>>> > >>>>>> 2) http://ofbiz.markmail.org/ > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 8:30 AM, axel van noten > >>>>>> <axelvanno...@hotmail.com>wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Hi > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I've been installing OFBiz and looking for the following information: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> 1) Where is the primary point can I find the most update > >>>>>>> documentation? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The documentation buton on the OFBiz website and the help button in > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>> application are both bringing me to the cwiki.apache site. But there > >>>>>>> seems > >>>>>>> to be no clear structure nor a primary point where I can turn to for > >>>>>>> manuals > >>>>>>> and documentation. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> 2) is there a possibility to perform a text search on this mailing > >>>>>>> list? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> 3) I'm trying to load a product database into OFBiz. What would be the > >>>>>>> appropriate way to do so? Is this documented somewhere? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Thanks for your help! > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Kind regards > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Axel > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _________________________________________________________________ > >>>>>>> Keep your friends updated�even when you�re not signed in. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/see-it-in-action/social-network-basics.aspx?ocid=PID23461::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-xm:SI_SB_5:092010 > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Windows Live: Make it easier for your friends to see what you’re up to > >>>>> on Facebook. > >>>>> _________________________________________________________________ > >>>>> Windows Live: Make it easier for your friends to see what you’re up to > >>>>> on Facebook. > >>>>> http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/see-it-in-action/social-network-basics.aspx?ocid=PID23461::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-xm:SI_SB_2:092009 > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Keep your friends updated—even when you’re not signed in. > > http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/see-it-in-action/social-network-basics.aspx?ocid=PID23461::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-xm:SI_SB_5:092010 > _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail: Your friends can get your Facebook updates, right from Hotmail®. http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/see-it-in-action/social-network-basics.aspx?ocid=PID23461::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-xm:SI_SB_4:092009
