Of course you are. You are a committer. On 7/29/05, James Mitchell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I'm not speaking for the world, but I am +1 to what Steve said. If > you are truly unhappy, take the code elsewhere. That is what I am > planning to do for a certain commons component in a few months. I am > unhappy about how it is being maintained, and the author/committer > refuses to listen to reasonable arguments (from me and others), so > I'll just take what's there and roll my own. I can do that with any > Apache Licensed software, that's the point of the license. > > Go for it!! I dare you!! > > > -- > James Mitchell > Software Engineer / Open Source Evangelist > Consulting / Mentoring / Freelance > EdgeTech, Inc. > http://www.edgetechservices.net/ > 678.910.8017 > AIM: jmitchtx > Yahoo: jmitchtx > MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Skype: jmitchtx > > > > On Jul 29, 2005, at 1:48 PM, Dakota Jack wrote: > > > Committers have a way of speaking for the world. That is a wonderful > > thing. I can only speak for myself. I can also only listen for > > myself. > > > > On 7/28/05, Steve Raeburn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >> Michael / Jack / Thingamabob, > >> > >> Struts is licensed in such a way that if you are unhappy with the > >> way it > >> is being managed, you are quite free to fork the code and continue to > >> develop it in whatever way *you* see fit. > >> > >> I suspect you'd make a lot of people very happy if you went away > >> and did > >> that. > >> > >> Steve > >> > >> Dakota Jack wrote: > >> > >> > >>> Struts could live by improving in ways unlikely with the present > >>> management. The people in charge of Struts these days are really > >>> interested in something else. Unless the baton passes to those > >>> actively building something, Struts likely will either die from be > >>> non-competitive with like products or from being turned into > >>> something > >>> it is not, like JSF, Shale, Clay, Dirt. > >>> > >>> On 7/26/05, Greg Reddin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> Interesting this discussion would come up now. I've been in and > >>>> out of > >>>> Struts for about 5 years. I'm now coming back in and taking > >>>> interest in > >>>> JSF/Shale, etc. A few of points to think about: > >>>> > >>>> 1. Struts will someday die. If it doesn't, then we've seen the > >>>> end of > >>>> technology advancement. If those of us who love Struts and what it > >>>> provides want to continue to have influence going forward, we > >>>> have to be > >>>> ready to embrace the next thing that's better than Struts and add > >>>> value there. Staying with something because of familiarity is > >>>> typically > >>>> the road to becoming a dinosaur in technology. > >>>> > >>>> 2. I only started studying JSF seriously about 2 weeks ago. > >>>> From what > >>>> I've seen it takes the best things Struts offers and brings them > >>>> into a > >>>> somewhat cleaner package. Those things are: > >>>> > >>>> * Nice HTML tag library. > >>>> * Auto-populating of form beans. > >>>> * Simple controller interface. > >>>> > >>>> It also expands on these things by making the view easier to > >>>> develop, > >>>> less restriction on how form beans and controllers are > >>>> developed, and > >>>> some other really interesting services that I've only begun to play > >>>> with. To sum it up, using JSF out of the box I can do most of > >>>> what I > >>>> can with Struts, only quicker and with less code. I see JSF as > >>>> the next > >>>> step of Struts. But it's still not complete. I'm only > >>>> beginning to see > >>>> what Shale adds to JSF and am following Shale with great interest. > >>>> > >>>> 3. PHP. I've done some PHP over the last couple years. I'm by no > >>>> means an expert, but I do know my way around somewhat. The > >>>> whole time > >>>> I've caught myself thinking if I was in Java I'd have a better > >>>> way to do > >>>> just about everything. But most of the "better way" is because > >>>> of the > >>>> J2EE APIs, Struts, and Tiles. The language is a bit more > >>>> cumbersome > >>>> than Java and it's much more difficult to modularize. I find > >>>> PHP is > >>>> easier (to me) if I don't try to make things elegant, but just > >>>> "spew > >>>> code" to some extent. I finally found a CMS to use as a Struts- > >>>> like > >>>> framework, but I still find Java/Struts and now JSF to be better, > >>>> cleaner, and more modular. I am now trying to figure out a way > >>>> to do my > >>>> future "on-the-side" consulting in Java instead of PHP. > >>>> > >>>> I think another of PHPs success factors has to do with its > >>>> acceptance > >>>> from the open source community. Somehow Java has had a somewhat > >>>> tainted > >>>> reputation due to the lack of a truly open complete > >>>> implementation -- > >>>> and probably some are just bitter that Sun hasn't opened the > >>>> whole thing > >>>> up. I don't personally have anything to contribute to that > >>>> debate, but > >>>> I suspect it's a factor in why PHP has been so widely embraced > >>>> on the > >>>> web compared to Java. > >>>> > >>>> So all in all, it doesn't much matter to me if JSF supercedes > >>>> Struts. > >>>> If it's better, then it should. If we get behind Shale it think > >>>> we can > >>>> have our cake and eat it too. > >>>> > >>>> BTW, for JSF info, try MyFaces. Their Getting Started section > >>>> points to > >>>> some pretty good tutorials. In short testing I've found the > >>>> myfaces > >>>> implementation to be pretty stable. I'm actually surprised > >>>> Craig is not > >>>> listed as a contributor to that project. > >>>> > >>>> That's my 50 cents. > >>>> Greg > >>>> > >>>> Daniel Perry wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> Sorry for the OT postings. > >>>>> > >>>>> My point was that you cant compare usage of PHP with Struts. > >>>>> > >>>>> The number of Struts sites (or even java sites) will never > >>>>> overtake the > >>>>> number of PHP sites for the reasons i pointed out (although... > >>>>> zend are > >>>>> doing their best to kill off php by trying to move it into the > >>>>> > >> enterprise > >> > >>>>> arena and tying it with java). But for those same reasons, > >>>>> comparing > >>>>> > >> the > >> > >>>>> two is useless. > >>>>> > >>>>> As for JSF... It seems like a nice idea, but i havnt fully got > >>>>> my head > >>>>> > >> round > >> > >>>>> it. I cant see it killing off struts in the short term (just > >>>>> look at > >>>>> > >> daily > >> > >>>>> rate of postings on this list!!!) I do like the idea of > >>>>> replacing struts > >>>>> html tags with JSF. I certainly think JSTL/EL are nicer than > >>>>> the logic > >>>>> tags. > >>>>> > >>>>> I now have a dilema... I'm just about to start on another > >>>>> project. What > >>>>> technologies do i use? > >>>>> > >>>>> I guess i'll probably stick with struts. Though i may dabble > >>>>> with JSF a > >>>>> bit. > >>>>> > >>>>> Can anyone recommend any good resources? Sure a google search > >>>>> provides > >>>>> > >> tons > >> > >>>>> of information... but which is any good? > >>>>> > >>>>> Daniel. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>> From: Mark Benussi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>>> Sent: 26 July 2005 10:38 > >>>>>> To: 'Struts Users Mailing List' > >>>>>> Subject: RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> No offence but this is a daft conversation that I have seen too > >>>>>> many times. > >>>>>> Say Struts is dead to a certain Blue vendor who has just > >>>>>> releases their > >>>>>> latest Portal server which is built on Struts and they may > >>>>>> smile wryly. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The number of sites out there running Struts is huge and the > >>>>>> number of > >>>>>> products that rely on it as also fairly big. Anyone in the > >>>>>> telecoms industry > >>>>>> will know how even the latest version of Broadvision uses Struts. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I have attended some JSF talks, and the technology seems > >>>>>> powerful but I > >>>>>> > >> am > >> > >>>>>> not sold. I came to server side programming from DHTML and > >>>>>> like the way > >>>>>> struts still lets you work at that end with large freedom but > >>>>>> also a lot of > >>>>>> powerful taglibs. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> If Struts 'dies' I will take it on personally and do whatever it > >>>>>> needs that > >>>>>> it seems to be lacking. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I have never done any PHP so I can't comment, but agree with the > >>>>>> > >> previous > >> > >>>>>> comments in so far as Struts/Java/Servlets is for large > >>>>>> applications. I > >>>>>> would not build a suite of actions and database pooling for my > >>>>>> old mans > >>>>>> plane photos web site. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> As for this server requirements, yes Java (Tomcat whatever > >>>>>> else) needs > >>>>>> server resources, but once its loaded it flies as its > >>>>>> threaded. Am I > >>>>>> > >> right > >> > >>>>>> in thinking PHP is not threaded i.e. holding F5 on a PHP page can > >>>>>> cause some > >>>>>> processing issues? Anyway no offence but I don't want to know the > >>>>>> > >> answer. > >> > >>>>>> This is a Struts list and I accept JSF is vaguely relevant but > >>>>>> I am not > >>>>>> going to utter another sentence about PHP. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>> From: Daniel Perry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>>> Sent: 26 July 2005 09:46 > >>>>>> To: Struts Users Mailing List > >>>>>> Subject: RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> PHP / (origional) JSP are the same stuff really. Scripted web > >>>>>> page. > >>>>>> > >> Main > >> > >>>>>> difference is php not OO (well, the api isnt), and php doesnt > >>>>>> require > >>>>>> > >> any > >> > >>>>>> declarations/typing - which makes it nicer for less able > >>>>>> programmers. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> But the big difference is server requirements. JSP uses a lot > >>>>>> more > >>>>>> > >> server > >> > >>>>>> resources. PHP can be made available on the cheapest mass > >>>>>> virtual > >>>>>> > >> hosting > >> > >>>>>> servers. JSP (let alone full java web apps) cant. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Also, pretty much anyone with any programming skills can pick > >>>>>> up php in > >>>>>> > >> a > >> > >>>>>> couple of days. Same cant be said for e.g. Struts+Java+JSP > >>>>>> +Servlet etc. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> This is why i am forced to use php for most sites (ok, so i > >>>>>> normally pass it > >>>>>> on to someone else here), and i tend to use struts for larger > >>>>>> > >> sites/apps > >> > >>>>>> that are going to be hosted internally/on dedicated servers. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Daniel. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>> From: John Henry Xu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>>>> Sent: 26 July 2005 04:17 > >>>>>>> To: Struts Users Mailing List > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!! > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> JSF has been there for a while. We have to see how it does in > >>>>>>> real applications. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> EJB has been there for many years, but its complexity of > >>>>>>> configuration (at least before mature tools were developed) kept > >>>>>>> many J2EE projects expensive and over budgets (bad ROI > >>>>>>> examples). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Thus we have so many frameworks in Java. Sun is to be blamed for > >>>>>>> always providing UNPROVEN technologies for java. In many cases, > >>>>>>> following sun too closely is not wise. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> PHP was great but I hope java can catch up in real application. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> John H. Xu > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> http://www.usanalyst.com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> http://www.GetusJobs.com (The largest free job portal in North > >>>>>>> > >> America) > >> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>> From: netsql > >>>>>>> To: user@struts.apache.org > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!! > >>>>>>> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:13:05 -0500 > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> John Public wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> After just finishing my JSF class, I can confidently > >>>>>>>>> confirm that JSF will eventually lead to Struts > >>>>>>>>> becoming OBSOLETE. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> :-) Enhydra and Torque would say that too circa 2001. > >>>>>>>> Put up a site and lets see it. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Let's all get > >>>>>>>>> behind JSF before MS takes over the web. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Nothing wrong w/ C# IMO. > >>>>>>>> I think PHP is "best(fast and cheap, lowest risk, most roi)" > >>>>>>>> for > >>>>>>>> "genric" server side rendering applications. (But then... I > >>>>>>>> think > >>>>>>>> the future is client side rendering ) > >>>>>>>> If JSF(or EJB) fails, it won't be becuase somone did not "get > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> behind it". > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Competition should give us best answer, and I am all for using > >>>>>>>> better tech. Every few years I'd like a new tech please. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> -- .V > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> People are conversing... without posting their email or > >>>>>>>> filling up > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> their > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> mail box. > >>>>>>>> roomity.com > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> No sign up to read or search this Rich Internet App. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>>> ----- > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Jack H. Xu > >>>>>>> Technology columnist and editor > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> http://www.usanalyst.com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North > >>>>>>> > >> America) > >> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>> ___________________________________________________________ > >>>>>>> Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com > >>>>>>> http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>> ---- > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>> ---- > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>>> --- > >>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> -- > >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its > > back." > > ~Dakota Jack~ > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >
-- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
