Agreed. I am still java illiterate.. I get lost when I try to track an exception down, and find a three line .java file :S
Using Cocoon -has- been a very difficult proccess. But for sure, I am almost excited when someone wants something new in something I have that runs under cocoon. With any of my php apps, I physically cringe when they ask me if they can have and email sent from some page or the other. I can do a lot of stuff very fast with php.. I have my own template system and code library I have built up over the years. But OMG it has become a "ok its done, thats what ya get" Kind of development... its just too messy. I think just the basic xsl transformations are enough to get new users. Thats how I found cocoon. It was only after that I had a DUH moment and realized my apps would be much easier to maintain and develop under cocoon. I really think that XSP + XSL stylesheets have the capability to knock php right out of the running. The only reason it hasn't Is php.net's function search. If you want to attract new people, push the simple stuff... in less than 200kb, an entire guestbook package can be built. I don't mean to trivialize cocoon, becuase it is meant for large scale applications, but new people want to see simple. For example... a newbie to php want's to send an email.. he goes to php.net, punches in 'mail' and now he has whole function reference with a discussion thread. Now for cocoon, if the mail sample had a configuration file, and a meat xsp, and all they had to do was drop the mail folder in thier app folder, and apply thier own xsl, I think we would keep that new guy. I'm trying for an idea here - PHP is popular because hosting providers make it available. The first time I installed and configured PHP by myself was ten times worse than the cocoon build. Ant kicks make's butt up and down the street. The way to get hosting providers interested in it is to get demand up. The way to get demand up is flashy easy stuff. Which is as simple as guestbooks, page counters, etc that can be used out-of the box. I guess my point is that *cocoon* - what it is, how it works isn't what needs to attract new people, its all in the samples! That will keep them going through the "Cocoon Frosh Week" JD -----Original Message----- From: Jorg Heymans [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 8:00 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cocoon activity exactly my thoughts ! those people who hang in there and push through those first difficult days/weeks never look back. Though i'm unsure how many get lost during those first days and give up. maybe the total skillset needed to get a grasp on cocoon is just too much for less experienced, dunno but then again who said cocoon is for beginning web developers (at the moment)... jorg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > the truth is that cocoon is not (beginners-dev)-friendly > because many parameters (the pipeline-approach, missing IDE, less debug > tools) > > after 2 years here and with cocoon in production from the first 2.0rc is > still difficult for me to do something without to see an example. > > .. but i like cocoon and believe in cocoon power (thats the reason i'm > here) > > > --stavros > > > On Fri, 14 Nov 2003, Carsten Ziegeler wrote: > > >>Alexander Schatten wrote: >> >>> >>>the whole discussion over the last weeks ist turning around that point, >>>that most believe, that Cocoon offers a lot of oportunities particularly >>>also for beginners, but some (including me) are arguing against the >>>deployment as beeing user-unfriendly, hence alienating many beginners. >>> >> >>I might sound like a rogue, but if you have an itch, scratch it! >> >>Carsten >> >>--------------------------------------------------------------------- >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
