Harse, patronizing and true words.
But application complexity was not the issue here...
Askild
WHIRLYCOTT wrote:
It seems highly unlikely to me that someone who cannot master the
important parts of a modern java application will be able to develop
applications that will scale in complexity as the application
requirements increase.
If you think that java is overly complex, building a layer on top of
it based on XML, XSLT, SQL Transformer and JX is not the right
answer! The debugging problems alone are making me shiver.
phil.
Askild Aaberg Olsen wrote:
Yes, Derek, I have followed the discussion with great interest, but
not participated myself. It seams like reason has won, and someone
even tries to enhance the current XSP-block! 0:-)
As a side note here, look at <?a=93967486800002&r=1&w=2>
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-cocoon-dev&m=110848544625231&w=2
where Stefano Mazzocchi writes about the two "camps" on the dev-list.
<?a=93967486800002&r=1&w=2>
A simple db-webapp with Flow/CForms and SQL *could* be as follows:
* Use one pipeline with the SQL-transformer to generate an
XML-document from the DB.
* Bind this document to the Form (load)
* When the document is edited (save), inject the document to another
pipeline with JX, using XSLT and SQL-transformer to update the DB.
Reading and "writing" the bound XML from and to pipelines makes the
implementation transparent to Flow and CForms, so substituting the
implementation is easy (we use our own XDB based on SQL instead of
SQL-statements, but the principle is the same).
Just a tip in the "right" direction... ;-)
Askild
-
Derek Hohls wrote:
Askild
My skills are similar to yours... but, I have not seen any documents
or examples that deal with the creation of a full-fledged DB app
that only uses XSLT, XML, SQL-transformer and Flow/CForms. I'd be
very happy if you can point me in the
right direction.
Thanks.
P.S. XSP is *not* deprecated (see other threads for this).
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 2005/06/14 12:34:26 PM >>>
Derek Hohls wrote:
Tom
Ok; that is one viewpoint. But I think these quotes from the Wiki:
http://wiki.apache.org/cocoon/GettingStartedWithCocoonAndHibernate
are also pertinent:
"Be aware that you will not be ready to write Hibernate-based
applications in 5 minutes. You are about to venture into a complex
topic. Sit back, get a cup of tea and prepare for some **days** of
reading and learning. The following skills are mandatory: You need
to be proficient in Java..."
I did spend a fair chunk of last year downloading and days reading
through the Hibernate documents - they do seem fairly comprehensive
and well-written... but they are not simple or straightforward.
And for
someone like myself, with skills in XML, XSLT, Javascript, SQL...
all of
which have been more than sufficient to develop webapps with Cocoon
over
the past few - the add-in of high-level Java skills to the mix is a
really "gotcha" that significantly raises the learning barrier here.
So to rephrase my original point - is this the only way to develop
interactive
database webapps with Cocoon - or should PHP start looking like an
attractive option once more?!
It's the "only" way if your skills are in Java only... ;-)
The Cocoon-community seems divided in two different camps; one that
use it as a Java-development framework, and another that uses it as
an XML-development framework.
I myself belong to the second, using only XML, XSLT, transformers
(e.g. SQL), XSP (e.q. ESQL) and Flow. A lot of people will point my
finger at me shouting "bad practice", XSP is deprecated! The
original idea behind XSP was to have an efficient way to
prototype/script generators, but having been misused for "control"
in the MVC-pattern, some looks at XSP itself as bad design...
So, sitemaps, XSLT, XML, SQL-transformer and optionaly Flow will get
you a long way to develop yout interactive database wepabb. Used in
the right manner, it works - brilliantly!
In the end it's your ability to design a good architechture that
saves the day, not a lot of fancy tools and frameworks.
Askild
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