On 7 août 2014 16:56:33 CEST, Tom Davies <tomc...@gmail.com> wrote: >Hi :) >Ahh, i understand now. You don't mean to be insulting and don't even >notice when you do it. > >Your statement, "As for customer service, we don't do customer >service.", >well said. I'm not sure who the "we" is. It doesn't include almost >anyone >on this mailing list since the whole reason for this mailing list is to >provide "customer service". It is what >most of us are here for.
But you are not providing customer service. nothing going on here is customer service. Do you have a set of scripts and processes you have been told to follow? Are people here paying for this service? No. And that's quite normal because this is not a place for customer service. It is however a place for users support done for free and delivered as a community, centered on a software that is not a product but a community delivered set of stable versions. > >Your "please describe, step by step". Actually we deal with people >here. >It's not like programming. There are >rarely logical steps. People usually try to be logical when using an office suite. I asked you if you could describe problems encountered by people when trying to contribute to LibreOffice. Still no answer. > >A first response might be to point them to documentation that covers >exactly what was asked. Ideally would summarise and simplify but would >also ask for more detail and/or background information. So there are 3 >things that would seem to be vital but actually most of the time it's >none >of those that really helped. The main thing that helped was an >acknowledgement that the question was heard by a human being. After >that >the question starts to emerge. It's best when several people each jump >in >with different types of answers or dealing with different aspect of >what >the question might be. The o.p. tends to start responding to 1 of >those >people and that tends to indicate the direction that the real question >is >about. > >For example a good answer to the question "My curtains are a bit >charred. >How do i stop them getting like that?" might be "Grab your bag and >leave >the building. Your house is on fire". Sometimes it takes a bit of a >leap >like that. It's seldom something that can fit neatly into step-by-step >instructions. > >Your ""I was on the users list and not anywhere else" is not a valid >argument" IS very belittling. >When something is finally fixed and has been working well do you assume >that the people who worked so hard on it >would then go and break it? We do work very hard to break everything we build. Absolutely . And we do it for the sole reason of driving you nuts. > >I think most of us were guilty of assuming that once a thing was fixed >and >could be happily maintained with little or no effort that attention >would >move onto things that were still broken to fix them too. I can't >believe >so much work has gone into breaking something that was fine. If the >web-designers really wanted to fix something how about helping all the >international translators sort theirs out? How about moving into UI or >UX >design and lending a hand there. It's not like there is a shortage of >interesting things to do! Tom : you are becoming really funny to talk to. Best, Charles. >Regards from >Tom :) > > > > > >On 7 August 2014 14:25, Charles-H. Schulz < >charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org> wrote: > >> Quoting myself: >> >> "please describe, step by step, what is hard >> about contributing or finding information about contributing." >> >> No answer to that question. >> >> As for customer service, we don't do customer service. Volunteers >provide >> users support. Users support in this case is not done as a >consequence of a >> purchase or any sort of commercial transaction. It changes quite a >lot of >> things. But as I wrote before: "I would never say that"...talking >about >> belittling the value or complexity of users support. >> >> Charles. >> >> >> Le 07.08.2014 15:17, Tom Davies a écrit : >> >>> Hi :) >>> That just highlights my points. >>> >>> If you really want to learn about customer support then i suggest >>> taking a course in it. People put years of study into it. I'm not >>> sure i could explain it all in a quick email. Perhaps you could >>> explain C++ in a quick email? >>> >>> There is a bit more to it than you might expect. Try helping solve >>> users problems on this mailing list for a while and i think you >would >>> be surprised. >>> >>> Regards from >>> Tom :) >>> >>> On 7 August 2014 13:54, Charles-H. Schulz >>> <charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org> wrote: >>> >>> Le 07.08.2014 14:28, Tom Davies a écrit : >>>> >>>> Hi :) >>>>> No-Op has been a huge help to many people on this User Mailing >>>>> List >>>>> since the very early days of TDF. I know that user-support and >>>>> customer service are kinda frowned on as being not much work. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I would never say that. >>>> >>>> However it is the first point-of-contact between weeus and is a >>>>> prime >>>>> place to build people up and recruit them for this and other >>>>> teams. I >>>>> bet there are tons of people in various teams right now who >>>>> wouldn't >>>>> be there if it hadn't been for No-Op inspiring and pushing them >>>>> into >>>>> it. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I am a bit surprised by that but I could be wrong: Noop has had >>>> quite a few negative comments for years and it did not strike me >>>> that it could attract new volunteers or that he was helping people >>>> to become volunteers. >>>> >>>> Instead of grumbling about how little work No-Op is doing how >>>>> about >>>>> doing more work yourself to answer the unanswered questions here. >>>>> Maybe that way you could show us how little work it takes and we >>>>> would >>>>> learn to be better. Or maybe, just maybe you'd find out how much >>>>> hard >>>>> work it takes. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Let's do this then: what is hard to understand - I'm not saying >>>> everything's easy, but please describe, step by step, what is hard >>>> about contributing or finding information about contributing. >>>> >>>> The old web-page No-Op linked to was finally neat and tidy. >>>>> Almost >>>>> elegant! It was finally easy to see how to change anything such >>>>> as >>>>> language, OS, version. It was even quite a good way of showing >>>>> off >>>>> quite what variety LO offers but done in way that wasn't >>>>> confusing or >>>>> hidden. At last the buttons were proper buttons that could be >>>>> pressed >>>>> like real-world buttons. >>>>> >>>>> In chess games there is sometimes a dangerous moment when your >>>>> position is so perfect that any move is going to detract from >>>>> that >>>>> perfection. There are times when you really need to pass and >>>>> miss a >>>>> go or lose the game. That appears to have happened to the >>>>> downloads >>>>> page. >>>>> >>>> >>>> So this download page has been around for 6 months. There was a >>>> period of public development and public feedback collection of 3 >>>> months before that. Where were you? Where was Noop? (BTW: "I was on >>>> the users list and not anywhere else" is not a valid argument). >>>> >>>> I was shocked by the downloads page today. The layout IS >>>>> appalling >>>>> and confusing. It's difficult to find how to get anything other >>>>> than >>>>> the default download. Then set choices kept getting forgotten. >>>>> Tick-boxes used inappropriately and didn't work. >>>>> >>>>> Change just for the sake of change is not always positive. >>>>> >>>> >>>> True. Criticizing something for 4 years does not make it right >>>> either... >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Charles. >>>> >>>> Regards from >>>> Tom :) >>>> >>>> On 7 August 2014 09:09, Charles-H. Schulz >>>> <charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Le 07.08.2014 09:55, NoOp a écrit : >>>> >>>> On 08/06/2014 10:01 AM, Florian Reisinger wrote: >>>> Hi Tom, >>>> >>>> If we do not find the bugs in the fresh version, they won't be >>>> resolved until the rename to Stable/Still. If less use Fresh, the >>>> quality of the next stable will be lower.... Does this help? >>>> >>>> No. Basically what you and Sophie are saying is that 'we fully >>>> expect >>>> new/any user to download and use the "Fresh" branch by default so >>>> that >>>> LO (dev?) can find an resolve bugs in the 'new & improved & added >>>> feature' version'. That's just crazy talk. >>>> >>>> No, that is how Free Software works. If you think it is crazy, >>>> then >>>> Ubuntu, Firefox, the Linux kernel, Debian, Fedora, Mint, VLC... >>>> every >>>> other project has that crazy way. >>>> >>>> I am somewhat astounded as I hear Charles complaining about funding >>>> (rightly so, that's his job), >>>> >>>> huh? What is my job, according to you? >>>> >>>> users complaining about lack of bug fixes >>>> w/dev's LO countering with 'we only have a certain amount of >>>> resources & >>>> have to prioritise' etc., etc. So why even have two branches to >>>> begin with? >>>> >>>> Because branches do not cost more money than 10 or 1. >>>> >>>> The Fresh/Still nonsense is just that - nonsense. Here is a link to >>>> the >>>> internet archive from LO Download in 2013 Dec 31: >>>> >>>> >>>> <https://web.archive.org/web/20131231021742/http://www. >>> libreoffice.org/download >>> >>>> [1] >>>> [1]> >>>> >>>> On that page there is no "Fresh", "Stable", "Still" et al; there is >>>> only >>>> download defaulting to 4.1.4. and minor link options to change to >>>> 4.0 or >>>> 'Pre-releases' 4.2. That download page makes complete sense. Why on >>>> earth the "private marketing list" change to the current nonsense? >>>> >>>> @TDF: Please just stop. Go back to the download page of December >>>> 2013 & >>>> keep it simple. >>>> >>>> @Noop: please stop complaining about changes. In 2010, you were >>>> already complaining about the same things. >>>> >>>> IMO you should just drop the "Still" branch and concentrate your >>>> dev >>>> efforts on one *single* user release. The next time that I (as a >>>> user) >>>> hear that you've not enough resources to address a bug report I'll >>>> have >>>> to ask: so, how many devs are working on 'Fresh' v 'Still' v >>>> 'Daily' v >>>> 'Trunk' v EOL, etc? Can you not fix the bug because these folks are >>>> spread so thin across the various "branches" that they can't >>>> properly >>>> concentrate on a baseline release fix? >>>> >>>> @Sophie/Florian: The admission that 'Fresh' is the default so that >>>> bugs >>>> will be identified earlier is, IMO, nuts (other words come to mind, >>>> but >>>> I'll try to keep this civilized). 'Hello World - take our RC >>>> (X.Y.0) and >>>> use it by default so that we can debug it' is not a good thing to >>>> announce/promote here or elsewhere. >>>> >>>> @Charles: you keep asking for users on in this thread to suggest a >>>> new >>>> name ("Now: if you have ideas for new names, etc. you are welcome >>>> to >>>> contribute to our marketing team.) - no name is necessary, nor >>>> should it >>>> be necessary for users on this list to need to subscribe to the >>>> marketing list to voice their concerns. You are TDF - instead >>>> invite the >>>> "private marketing list" members to participate in this thread, >>>> this is >>>> afterall a user & user support concern. BTW: for those that may >>>> want to >>>> do this anyway, just how does one gain access to this "private >>>> marketing >>>> list" that Sophie spoke of? How about providing a link to a >>>> transcript >>>> of the "private marketing list" contents so that others on this >>>> "open >>>> source" project can review? >>>> >>>> Do you think TDF is a company? TDF relies on volunteers. Our users >>>> are our future contributors. We are not Wal Mart. You don't buy >>>> things >>>> from us and users are not customers. So yes, even if it sounds >>>> crazy >>>> to you, we do highly encourage users to join our various teams. As >>>> for >>>> the private marketing list, yes we do use this list mostly for >>>> press/announcement preparations, otherwise news and text elements >>>> would be disclosed before due date. How do you join this list? Good >>>> question. By contributing, not by complaining, and by asking. And >>>> if >>>> that's not your call, we have plenty of other teams for you to join >>>> : >>>> https://www.libreoffice.org/community/get-involved/ [2] [2] >>>> >>>> >>>> If that's still not your call, and you just want to use >>>> LibreOffice... that's fine! we are happy that you do so. >>>> >>>> Bottom line is that I (and others) disagree with the "private >>>> marketing >>>> list" decision to go with the existing 'Fresh/Still/whatever' >>>> download >>>> page(s). Please consider simply rolling back to the Dec 2013 model. >>>> >>>> Thank you for your suggestion, but no, we won't. We have deployed >>>> a >>>> brand new website, asked for feedback on several completely open >>>> and >>>> public lists for several months. We feel good about the choices we >>>> have made (although we are still toying with the Still branch name) >>>> but no we won't come back to the December 2013, December 2010 or >>>> December 10 C.E. because some think the past is always better than >>>> the >>>> future. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Charles. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org >>>> Problems? >>>> >>>> >http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ >>> >>>> [3] >>>> [3] >>>> Posting guidelines + more: >>>> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette [4] [4] >>>> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ >>>> [5] [5] >>>> >>>> >>>> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and >>>> cannot >>>> be deleted >>>> >>>> Links: >>>> ------ >>>> [1] >>>> >>>> https://web.archive.org/web/20131231021742/http://www. >>> libreoffice.org/download >>> >>>> [1] >>>> [2] https://www.libreoffice.org/community/get-involved/ [2] >>>> [3] >>>> >>>> >http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ >>> >>>> [3] >>>> [4] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette [4] >>>> [5] http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ [5] >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Links: >>> ------ >>> [1] >>> https://web.archive.org/web/20131231021742/http://www. >>> libreoffice.org/download >>> [2] https://www.libreoffice.org/community/get-involved/ >>> [3] >http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ >>> [4] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette >>> [5] http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ >>> >> > >-- >To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org >Problems? >http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ >Posting guidelines + more: >http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette >List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ >All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be >deleted -- Envoyé de mon téléphone avec Kaiten Mail. Excusez la brièveté. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
