Jallan wrote:
Robin Laing wrote:
I quite believe that. But all that is left in OOo Writer is the results
of that misinterpretation, not the codes, which you therefore need not
worry about in fixing the problem. If there are no codes to be jumbled,
no-one can jumble them.
But one can override with direct formatting.
A lot of the problems that reveal codes aids with are problems that
can't occur in the first place if the system doesn't use formatting
codes internally.
Really? In my experience, I don't agree. But again, I am not an
expert on creating and using styles on hodgepodge documents.
>
If you want a particular level of headings to be in a particular font,
to have a particular font size, to be in a particular color, and to have
a particular indentation, is it more complicated do it once and apply
this *single* style again and again and again, or apply *each* of the
attributes *separately* again, and again, and again?
Which will have the greatest possibility of user error? Which will be
more difficult to fix if an error has occurred?
Using a style abstracts the complexity by putting it all in one place,
in the style definition.
And if the style is used but then a bunch of direct formatting is
applied, then what a pain as in one document I just looked at.
What happens if there is a character style that is within this
paragraph? (At least OOo does a better job of undoing these changes
than MS Word from a convert.)
What happens if a single attribute, such as italics, is applied to a
range of text within a paragraph? I don't see what you are getting at.
Simple. Using an example that I have used before. I have a document
that uses "Header 1" It set the justification, font, size and
attributes. But on the next line which is empty, the justification is
changed. And the next line which is still "Header 1" has different
justification, font and font attributes. Does this make it any
clearer? I did not create the document.
But that is what I do understand. This is why I suggest a single box
that displays each of these without having to click through multiple
windows.
A dialog box with *all* formatting attributes supported by OOo Writer
would be too large and cumbersome for most uses. Could you really fit
all possible attribute that apply at a cursor position in a single
dialog box? I suggested a scrolling list perhaps, for odd cases where
this might help.
I just learned that I can set the styles window to display only the
styles being used. This is a step in the right direction as it showed
me the problems in the example above.
But mostly it would not help. When looking at character attributes, it
is very, very rare that a user also wants to look at page attributes
such as page size or margin settings, or wants to look at paragraph
spacing attributes.
Word Perfect's reveal code mode certainly doesn't do anything like this.
You have to go hunting for codes that set page margins and so forth,one
of the disadvantages of the formatting code model. While we need
formatting tags in markup language which is essentially one dimensional,
with a two dimensional jumps when styles are concerned, the internal
text structure within a text processing system can be multi-dimensional,
and text attributes can run on a separate level parallel to the text
itself.
But RC's would show me when there is a change to the formatting or
margins. That isn't easily done in OOo.
I know that if I change the format of a word, the style in the XML
code is different than the word before and the word after. The XML
has a pointer to the description. I don't know XML but I am
learning. To me there is an indication that the formatting changes.
I'm not clear on your point.
Formatting changes in space, between any two characters which have any
different formatting attributes, between any two paragraphs that have
any different paragraph attributes, between any two pages that have any
different page attributes.
Formatting changes in time when you change any of these attributes for a
range of text from what they were previously
This is the point. When it changes, how to I easily see these
changes? What happens if a style is used in a document and the
internal text is deleted, all but one space. That style may still be
there.
Most people don't. They just create them on the fly. It takes no longer
to create multiple-effect formatting in a style then it does doing
outside a style, but doing it outside a style means if you want that
same group of effects again, you are going to have to recreate that
bundle of effects again and again and again and again.
This is where some of WP formatting tools are handy. This is also the
headache of many writers that create many one off documents. They
don't use the same style over and over. I do agree that if you use
the same effect and formatting over and over, templates and styles are
perfect.
(Of course, you can also use the formatting broom icon on the standard
toolbar to pick up such a combination of attributes and apply it
elsewhere, which is a way of applying a complex bundle of formatting
attributes without defining them in a style and without having to
manually enter them again and again. However you lose the advantage of
being able to change the bundle throughout the document all at once.)
This is where I agree styles are great.
Press F11. For each different kind of styles in the Stylist you can set
the list box at the bottom of the list to "Applied styles". Only styles
that actually occur in that document will appear.
Having just learned about this option, I find it useful.
You can also use Find & Replace to search for any one of those styles.
But what style do I search for?
But it would be nice to also be able to generate an index of styles used
in a document, finding what they are and where they are employed all at
once.
What ones were used on importing this particular piece of
text. Was it a paragraph style that is causing this affect or a
character style?
Yes. This would be a wonderful aid.
I want the ability to go through a 60 page document
with my keyboard and see in a quick dialog where and what style
changed. This is what lead me to my suggestion.
You can see that now, as far as styles are concerned.
Run your cursor through your document with the Stylist open to character
styles. The page style indicator on the status bar at the bottom of the
page shows your current page style, the paragraph style indicator on the
extreme left of the formatting toolbar shows the current paragraph
style, and the current character style is highlighted in the Stylist.
The formatting toolbar also shows the current font, font size, and
whether italics, bolding, or underlining is applied at the current
cursor position, though these last three are easily enough seen in any
case.
How many place do I have to look to find out all the info. With RC, I
look in the dialog box and I have my text and formatting in the same
location. I know that there is a formatting change very quickly. A
scan of the dialog box can reveal any changes that occur. Where it is
a "Style" or direct formatting. I don't have to even have my cursor
at that spot of text to see that a change has occurred.
Unfortunately, if direct formatting has been applied lavishly, the
actual formatting of much document may have very little to do with the
styles that have been applied, lost and buried under direct formatting.
This is the issue of having a RC type of dialog. A tool to find
these, even the ones that are changed over an empty line would be nice.
I come across this daily. If allot of direct formatting is used then
styles are useless. Direct formatting is one reason that many WP
users hate MS Office, it is what they are familiar with.
That, I think, is the greatest problem for many documents.
How about a document on Styles for WordPerfect users?
It would be very useful to have a document on differences between Word
Perfect and OOo Writer, including some commentary on styles along with
practical advice as to how a Word Perfect user can best cope with the
differences.
Currently there is an excellent migration guide which could serve as
model. The migration currently focuses mostly on MS Office users, for
obvious reasons. While it could be enhanced with more Word Perfect
examples, that would only clutter it up with things irrelevant to most
MS Office users.
Better various guides specific to particular products.
Jallan
You just hit a major problem. OOo focuses on MS Office users. That
is the issue as many WP users hate MS Office because of lack of RC's.
And this is the same issue with OOo.
I would use WP if there was a native Linux version.
This discussion has shown that those who love Reveal Codes will always
want the features of Reveal Codes. Those that learned Styles will
swear up and down that there is no need for Reveal Codes.
I have found a need for both. Even with the things I have learned
with this thread, I still see a need for a Reveal Codes type of
display but not with the ability to edit with the dialog. Something
that will allow any formatting change to be seen quickly without
looking at the right of the screen for styles. Font tool bar for font
and justification selection. As I said in one post, a character that
displays on the screen when non-printable characters is selected would
be better than what is available now.
Neither tool is perfect in all situations. That is why I suggested
that both tools be available in OOo, at least RC in a display only
mode to point to the style or formatting change so it can be deleted
or corrected.
I have learned allot and some of what I have learned, I will put on
the RFE (3395) for Reveal Codes. Hopefully something will come out of
this before OOo 3.0. Another great feature that MS Office doesn't
offer. :)
--
Robin Laing
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