At 07:53 AM 11 April 2002 -0700, Ma Be wrote: >On Wed, 10 Apr 2002 13:09:07 > Jim Elwell wrote: >... > >We are not talking about science per se, but about the measurement system > >to be used. > >?? What is a measurement system' if not *science*, Jim??? You're missing >the fundamental point here that IT IS, period!!!
You original response said that goons with guns do not "have the power to change science," and you gave gravity as an example. I certainly agree -- neither laws nor those enforcing them can change gravity, or the value of pi, or any other fundamental aspect of the universe. They certainly CAN, however, force people to use whatever measurement system those in power should choose, whether it be SI metric, another version of metric (e.g., a meter is defined as the height of my dog), or whatever. The SI metric system is hardly a fundamental property of the universe. And, if you are unwilling to use force, i.e., a cop pointing a gun at a citizen, to enforce laws, then those laws are nothing but recommendations. Trying to hide "force" behind phrases like "regulations" or "empowering authority" or being "subject to ... standards bodies" does not change that fact. If, as you suggested, we allow standards bodies the "authority" to declare which units of measure will be used, then you are either letting them RECOMMEND which units, or you give them the power to send in the cops and their guns to FORCE those who don't want to change to do so. Those whom, in your words, you do not consider to be acting "responsibly." I am not claiming that there is no place for laws or force. There are plenty of reasons to have the cops around and to give them big, nasty, powerful weapons, such as murder, rape, robbery, burglary, vandalism, etc. What you, and many on this forum, are willing to do is to use these same cops to enforce the measurement system you happen to prefer. I would be the first to admit that it is a better measurement system than what the USA mostly uses, but it is hardly perfect and hardly a justification for this type of abuse of state power. >If all stakeholders are made subject to these standards bodies authority >they would simply have no choice but to abide by their directives. It's >the law! On the other hand, of course, they are not to be perceived as >goons themselves and I do support 'education and capitalistic pressure' as >you put it as possible means to bring them into compliance. They would >have to act responsibly. Why do you think the Metric Martyr types are just going to give up their battle? They will give up, as the guy in England did, when the cops haul them off to jail. As to "It's the law!," all I can say is "so what?" We live in a world with a billion laws, and everyone of us breaks some law or other every day. And we already know there are people who will resist metrication laws, and will abide only when forced to do so. >...That's the beauty of it all. Take this aspect out of the hands of >politicians and into the hands of "the science guys" where it >BELONGS!!! Noone could conceptually argue against that anymore for >Congress itself would have recognized that it's the realm of scientists, >NOT the common man on the street! ;-) No one but scientists have had anything to do with defining fundamental units of measure for many years. What you are trying to accomplish here is not science, it is political and economic control. Having scientists declare what units people can or cannot use is no better than letting politicians do so. Scientists are experts at science, and, on the whole, are pretty ignorant of politics, political philosophies, philosophies of freedom, business strategy, practical business considerations, etc. They may know which units are better from a scientific standpoint, but that is NOT the same as which ones are better when considering such things as tradition, infrastructure, business processes, etc. I happen to have a number of engineers at my company with advanced degrees. They are very bright people. Are they qualified to make substantive business decisions, such as deciding if and when we should change our measurement systems? Hardly! >... I'm in essence addressing this issue from a fundamental philosophical >point-of-view which I feel even you would be forced to agree! ;-) heh, heh, heh ... got a chuckle out of your last three words there! However, sorry to disappoint you, Marcus. I really feel that your philosophical approach is aimed at avoiding the conflict between force and individual freedom. I think that is impossible, as I see them as inherently in conflict. You will get the last word on this Marcus, as I leave on another trip tomorrow and will have time to read your reply, but probably not to respond. Since we have run this track numerous times, I am sure most won't mind seeing this thread die out after your response. Jim Elwell
