Bill You said "I'm not sure that any of this is relevant to Stephen's point that, for his 15/16" sump plug, the nearest metric wrench (24 mm) is too loose" When I made the reply you refer to, I was working my way up the unread portion of my email inbox. At that time, the conversation hadn't diverted to "using metric socket sets to undo imperial bolts" If you look down the thread, I was responding to Jerry's question "Then what units are cars made in if not metric units?" and Stephen's reply "Mixed - My sump plug is 15/16ths" The main point of my reply was that Stephen was making a case that the current UK car market was "mixed" based upon a car last produced 16 years ago. I believe that his answer is not typical of the true situation. You may also notice that I didn't get involved in the later socket-set debate, but (for completeness), I do have a metric set & an imperial set of sockets. I also have imperial & metric sets of allen keys (you can tell them apart quickly by the shorter long arms on the imperial set) The imperial sets are used very infrequently compared with the metric sets. That's real life. But you should always try to use the correct tool for any job.
--- On Sun, 15/3/09, Bill Potts <w...@wfpconsulting.com> wrote: From: Bill Potts <w...@wfpconsulting.com> Subject: [USMA:43921] RE: Metric in disguiise (Was "Jerry's questions. . . .") To: "U.S. Metric Association" <usma@colostate.edu> Date: Sunday, 15 March, 2009, 9:04 PM I'm not sure that any of this is relevant to Stephen's point that, for his 15/16" sump plug, the nearest metric wrench (24 mm) is too loose. My own metric credibility is pretty strong. I'm a voting member of two SI-related IEEE/ASTM committees. Those very few (one?) on this list who are claiming that the old "standard" wrenches are metric in disguise are simply wrong. To Stephen's credit, he's not making such claims. Those who earn their living as automobile mechanics maintain two complete sets of wrenches. The "English" sets are used for bolt heads and nuts manufactured to the old standards. The metric sets are used only for bolt heads and nuts specified, by design, in hard metric (in this case, in integral millimeters). As cars have now had metric nuts and bolts for close to a quarter of a century, the metric wrench sets see far more use than the others. And, in reputable car service places, that use is never on the older non-metric nuts and bolts. (Does anyone ever violate that principle? I suspect so, but I would think twice about having my car serviced at such a place -- if I knew it was happening.) People with vintage car collections (who maintain them themselves) will, of course, use metric wrench sets very rarely. In the automobile field (which is, of course, now metric), "metric in disguise" relates to the units used in advertising and selling cars. These include interior space and trunk capacity, advertised in cubic feet, but designed in liters; visible dimensions (e.g., length), advertised in feet and inches, but designed in millimeters and best advertised in meters (with two decimal places being sufficient); gas tank capacity, advertised in US gallons, but designed in liters; oil-change volume requirements, designed in liters, but advertised in quarts; and so on. Bill Bill Potts WFP Consulting Roseville, CA http://metric1.org [SI Navigator] From: owner-u...@colostate.edu [mailto:owner-u...@colostate.edu] On Behalf Of Ken Cooper Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 13:20 To: U.S. Metric Association Subject: [USMA:43916] Re: Jerry's questions regarding "imperial" fuel & fish sales in the UK. Jerry Remember that Stephen likes to give out-of-date examples that have some mention of imperial. On this occasion, I strongly suspect that he is referring to his Rover Mini Rio. This Mini is an "old-style" mini (over 5 million "old-style" minis were produced between 1959 & 2000). The New BMW Mini is technically unrelated to the old-style Mini. Now, the Mini Rio was a limited edition of the Mini, which was only available in 1993. This is confimed by the fact that Stephen's car has a registration number in the format "L 123 ABC" - the "L" prefix on UK registration plates was available between August 1993 & July 1994. >From memory, the Rio was based upon the Mark VI mini, and was available with a >1275cc engine. So, why did Stephen conveniently "forget" to mention that his "mixed" imperial/metric Mini Rio is based upon a 1959 design, and went out of production around 16 years ago? And why did he choose to mention this car rather than the other cars he claims to own? Has he deliberately chosen a misleading answer to exaggerate imperial use in the UK? But yes. The 1993 Rover Mini Rio has a 15/16th inch sump plug. Stephen wouldn't tell lies. Perhaps he could also tell us when the Rover Group went bust? --- On Sat, 14/3/09, Jeremiah MacGregor <jeremiahmacgre...@rocketmail.com> wrote: From: Jeremiah MacGregor <jeremiahmacgre...@rocketmail.com> Subject: [USMA:43788] Re: Jerry's questions regarding "imperial" fuel & fish sales in the UK. To: "U.S. Metric Association" <usma@colostate.edu> Date: Saturday, 14 March, 2009, 3:39 AM #yiv131074896 #yiv603122227 DIV { MARGIN:0px;} Are you sure it isn't really 8 mm and you are just approximating it? Jerry From: Stephen Humphreys <barkatf...@hotmail.com> To: Jeremiah MacGregor <jeremiahmacgre...@rocketmail.com> Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 11:08:15 PM Subject: RE: [USMA:43759] Re: Jerry's questions regarding "imperial" fuel & fish sales in the UK. #yiv131074896 #yiv603122227 .hmmessage P { PADDING-RIGHT:0px;PADDING-LEFT:0px;PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;MARGIN:0px;PADDING-TOP:0px;} #yiv131074896 #yiv603122227 { FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:Verdana;} mixed My sump plug is 15/16ths Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 20:03:06 -0700 From: jeremiahmacgre...@rocketmail..com Subject: Re: [USMA:43759] Re: Jerry's questions regarding "imperial" fuel & fish sales in the UK. To: barkatf...@hotmail.com #yiv131074896 #yiv603122227 .ExternalClass DIV { } Then what units are cars made in if not metric units? Jerry From: Stephen Humphreys <barkatf...@hotmail.com> To: jeremiahmacgre...@rocketmail.com Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 9:57:15 PM Subject: RE: [USMA:43759] Re: Jerry's questions regarding "imperial" fuel & fish sales in the UK.. #yiv131074896 #yiv603122227 .ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P { PADDING-RIGHT:0px;PADDING-LEFT:0px;PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;PADDING-TOP:0px;} #yiv131074896 #yiv603122227 .ExternalClass BODY.EC_hmmessage { FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:Verdana;} No because they're not Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 18:48:17 -0700 From: jeremiahmacgre...@rocketmail..com Subject: [USMA:43759] Re: Jerry's questions regarding "imperial" fuel & fish sales in the UK. To: usma@colostate.edu #yiv131074896 #yiv603122227 .ExternalClass DIV { } So do you discuss cars in metric since cars are only made in metric units all over the world? Jerry From: Stephen Humphreys <barkatf...@hotmail.com> To: U.S. Metric Association <usma@colostate.edu> Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 7:25:46 AM Subject: [USMA:43670] Re: Jerry's questions regarding "imperial" fuel & fish sales in the UK.. #yiv131074896 #yiv603122227 .ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P { PADDING-RIGHT:0px;PADDING-LEFT:0px;PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;PADDING-TOP:0px;} #yiv131074896 #yiv603122227 .ExternalClass BODY.EC_hmmessage { FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:Verdana;} Sounds like we have some car enthusiasts on the list :-D Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 20:37:31 -0700 To: usma@colostate.edu From: br...@bjwhite..net Subject: [USMA:43668] Re: Jerry's questions regarding "imperial" fuel & fish sales in the UK. Funny. All of my cars have been manual transmissions (including my Audi Allroad and my BMW 540i...both 6-speed manuals). It took me getting a British vehicle to have an automatic. :) (A Range Rover Classic I picked up for $500, fixed it up a little bit and have since put 16,000km on it since I bought it a year ago.) I wish it was a manual transmission, but they never imported manuals to the US. But, I have 7 other cars, and they are all manual transmissions.... At 20:24 2009-03-10, Carleton MacDonald wrote: I’ve actually driven a manual transmission car most of my life: MG 1100, VW Beetle, two Rabbits, two Saab 900s (and two motorcycles mixed in). The car I have now (and have had since 2002), a 1999 Saab 9-5, is the first automatic I’ve ever owned. Metric related: Unlike most American cars, the km markings on the speedometer of the 9-5, inside the mile ones, are lit at night and can be read.. Carleton From: owner-u...@colostate.edu [ mailto:owner-u...@colostate.edu] On Behalf Of Stephen Humphreys Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 05:50 To: U.S. Metric Association Subject: [USMA:43627] Re: Jerry's questions regarding "imperial" fuel & fish sales in the UK. Congrats are due to you for mastering the use of a manual gearbox! I think that's more of an achievement than road placement (based upon most Americans driving Automatics). > From: carlet...@comcast.net > To: usma@colostate.edu > Subject: [USMA:43622] Re: Jerry's questions regarding "imperial" fuel & fish > sales in the UK. > Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 00:18:29 -0400 > > > I remember the first time I rented a car in the UK. October 1982, > Edinburgh, Scotland, British Rail Waverley Station. > > Left my wife Susan at the bed and breakfast, took a bus downtown, went to > the station, to the Godfrey Davis office. A kind, pretty young woman (I was > young then too) had me fill out the paperwork then gave me the keys. I > thanked her, opened the door, got in, and sat down. On the left side. > Where's the steering wheel? Oh, right. Got out, closed the door, glanced > at the booth: she was inside, hand on her mouth, suppressing a laugh. > Walked round the back of the car, got in the right side, sat down, felt the > shift with my left hand, started the car, said a very significant Anglican > prayer, put the car in gear, and headed out, saying to myself, "Drive on the > left. Drive on the left. Drive on the left. Drive on the left ..." Headed > back to the bed and breakfast, scared to death. Picked up Susan, headed out > of town toward the bridge over the Firth of Forth. Stopped, took picture of > the famous railway bridge. Started up again, found myself making a left > turn to the right side of the intersecting road, corrected quickly, too > quickly, hit a stone kerb, blew out the left front tire, stopped to change > it. > > Somehow we got through the three days without hitting anything, and it even > included a distillery tour, a steam train ride, and a night in Glencoe, > where my ancestors got massacred in 1692. > > Carleton > > P.S. When we got back to San Francisco we went to the store and Susan > bought soup; I told her to put the Campbell's soup back on the shelf! > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-u...@colostate.edu [ mailto:owner-u...@colostate.edu] On Behalf > Of Paul Trusten, R.Ph. > Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 21:02 > To: U.S. Metric Association > Cc: U.S. Metric Association > Subject: [USMA:43620] Re: Jerry's questions regarding "imperial" fuel & fish > sales in the UK. > > > Ah, but the rule of the road is in the eye of the beholder. Left-siders must > think the rest of the world has it backwards. > > Quoting Brian J White <br...@bjwhite.net>: > > > > > I think you brits should also fix your cars and > > roads so you drive on the correct side of the road. But that's just me. > :) > > > > > > At 15:54 2009-03-09, Stephen Humphreys wrote: > > >Sorry  - I think you might have the wrong person. > > >I'm not anti-metric - I'm a pro-choicer. > > > > > >The most 'extreme' views I hold on the subject regards safety.... > > > > > >I have always said and always been firm that: > > > > > >1) Road signs should stay imperial > > >2) Medicines and chemist goods should always be metric > > > > > >Both of these relate to safety concerns. > > > > > >For most other things (in fact prob all) I > > >prefer the dual route or a flexible degree of choice. > > > > > >This may put me at odds with many on this list > > >but I'm always truthful and up front about it > > >and as many many have said it is healthy to have > > >a contrary view here for purposes of debate. > > > > > >With regards to the USA - I actually believe it > > >should be more metric than it is. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Paul Trusten, R.Ph. > Public Relations Director > U.S. Metric Association (USMA), Inc. > www.metric.org > 3609 Caldera Boulevard, Apartment 122 > Midland TX 79707-2872 US > +1(432)528-7724 > mailto:trus...@grandecom.net > Beyond Hotmail see what else you can do with Windows Live. 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