To be fair, you need to ask everyone else from the UK if they agree with
Stephen. Stephen's bias against metric makes his viewpoint suspect.
Jerry
________________________________
From: "ezra.steinb...@comcast.net" <ezra.steinb...@comcast.net>
To: U.S. Metric Association <usma@colostate.edu>
Cc: usma@colostate.edu
Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 1:31:28 AM
Subject: [USMA:44567] Re: metric Britain
Good point about listening to local radio via the internet, Stephen. I hadn't
thought of that. Thanks for the tip --- and the enlightening tidbits on daily
usage amongst the English populace.
Ezra
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Humphreys" <barkatf...@hotmail.com>
To: "ezra steinberg" <ezra.steinb...@comcast.net>, usma@colostate.edu
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 3:33:50 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: RE: [USMA:44545] Re: metric Britain
Aha! You have picked up on a very interesting point there - and one that
reminds me of something you can do WITHOUT boarding that American Airlines
flight to Heathrow!!
Local Radio!
Over here you'll find that local radio tends to be 'phone in' chat based during
the rush hours (ie around 7 to 10 am or 4 to 6 pm).
So..... if you do the math(s) to work out the relevant time where you live in
the US then you could probably 'listen in' on the website for the station
concerned. So - for instance - BBC Radio London or BBC Radio Berkshire will
have the 'listen now' facilities. Also - you can hear the news bulletins every
half hour to hear how news events are handled.
As far as 'reading' - I think that even the pro-met UK contributors here will
say that the press here are 'imperial heavy' so to speak.
In relation to other things - height and weight (as in human) tend to be
imperial.
I'm a 'cat fan' and this is where we have odd behaviour by the food companies
(for example). Basically - when we talk about our cat's weight it's expressed
in pounds (no stones usually - although cats don't tend to get that heavy
although we do have a norwegian forest cat). However the food packaging
companies will talk about what to serve you cat based upon the cats weight in
kg. Again - no-one 'forced' them to use kg but - take aside a support for one
system or another for just a moment - I find it odd that what they print is at
odds with how people actually measure (including at cat shows).
As far as metric units that have 'made it' into common parlance...
Litres have entered vocabulary. All medical things (except - again - human
mass) will be discussed in metric.
km are very seldom used - in fact I literally cannot remember the last time I
heard another Brit mention km. Quite obvious though really - as there is no
exposure.
I've heard from pro-mets that 'metres' are sometimes used in place of yards. I
can say that only two people I know do that - one person at work and an army
friend who will probably use metres in his work.
Stones are only really used for human weight although I have seen it used for
dogs.
For approximations people tend to use inches for smallish things - but again if
you pick up a hifi magazine for example you'll see cm.
I always find this extremely odd. That people use inches to describe things
but magazines for specifications almost always use cm (sometimes mm).
Gallons get used in mpg - and for exageration - "I drank 10 gallons of water".
It's also used in attic tanks but thats not really 'casual talk'
kg is used a lot on TV - possibly more than pounds. And it's made it's way in
to casual talk.
But I urge you to tune in to these radio stations- that way you can hear real
brits - without the 'baggage' of bias or needing to ignore a frustrated mad man
from Ohio during those times when he's allowed to use the computer. Hearing it
'for real' will give you the best insight into life over here..
One final thing.
And I blame this on how we're taught at school and the stat's involvement in
measures over here. And that is - we're probably somewhat less 'verbose'
regarding measured in the UK compared to the USA or Europe. I notice with US
TV that measures tend to get used quite a bit (you lot MUST love the US based
TV series called "Bones" - it's crammed full of metric!).
So I hope this helps. It would be easy to say that people here use furlongs,
minims, leagues, grommits, etc etc but why would I do that? It would serve no
purpose so instead I direct you towards local radio to hear real people. If I
did come out with "Jerry-mandering nonsense" then you'd be able to see through
me as soon as you hear one of those shows.
Ok - back to enjoying Easter!!!
Steve
________________________________
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 21:18:47 +0000
From: ezra.steinb...@comcast.net
To: usma@colostate.edu
CC: usma@colostate.edu
Subject: [USMA:44545] Re: metric Britain
Thank you for the helpful details, Stephen.
Since you mentioned what people read or what they hear/see on the radio/telly,
perhaps you can describe what you see and hear in an ordinary day in those
venues as well as what you hear in daily conversation between people and which
units they spontaneously use in everyday conversation in the UK.
Cheers,
Ezra
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Humphreys" <barkatf...@hotmail.com>
To: "U.S. Metric Association" <usma@colostate.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 10:49:32 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: [USMA:44537] Re: metric Britain
Thanks for the chance Ezra - much appreciated.
To be honest the best way is to visit this country - although I admit that's a
rather costly option!!
I also think - to be fair - that your opinion can shape the way you see things.
Say I was a conservative MP - and you asked me how well Labour was governing
the UK - how would I respond?
That said - I really honestly do see myself as 'pro-choice' with a 'general
preference' to imperial (but not always) so it's not as clear cut as polarised
politicians.
You've got me thinking though! Maybe I should take a moment to think about
these things..
We just popped out to see an old Stag (not wildlife, an old Triumph car) and
you can assume that as I was driving my dash presented me with miles/ mph, and
the signs I saw were almost all miles/yds (there were some width/ height but
these were imperial as I was driving country routes). The LCD display showed
my engine temp in Celsius - I have it that way as the coolant is water - thus?
I think you can see my thinking here!! ;-)
I had to pop to halfords on the way back - they sell car bits. I need some oil
for the mini.
There are sat nav ads everywhere. Now originally I noted that they always
advertised the unit with a visible 'metres' on the advertised screen (as if UK
drivers would want that) - as John F-L might say - no one forced them to do
that. Now, however they're all advertised using yards in the screen shot. I
wonder if people wanted to make sure that they're unit matched their speedo,
roads etc? I've yet to see someone set their GPS to metres.
So - I go into Halfords. What do I buy? 4.5 Litres of Magnetec Oil - up
clicks my 'metric quota'.
Looking back so far - what's the most visual element to my day? I'd say the
celsius in my car and the imperial road signs. My mini's spec tells me how
many pints to put in - BUT - when I do the oil change I tend to put in 4
litres and use the dipstick for the rest. So measures do get involved a bit
but I'd argue that it's more like the Tesco debate - ie the use of measures is
less important than the scale visually. That's why I asked a question (a while
ago) whether if US pro-mets had just one 'Genie wish' would they 'do the roads'
or 'do the shelf edge'. I think you all know what would be preferable.
I will always argue that the best gauge is what people 'SAY' and 'ACTUALLY
READ' rather than the funny print on the side of a packet. Maybe that's why
roads and pints at the pub are seemingly guarded by politicians and the press?
Because that's a really tangible alteration that people would actually notice.
Also - please remember that during a course of a day measurements make up a
tiny portion of living - lets get some scale (insert pun) to this - there are
more important things in life. Mine - today - was seeing this stag. As it
happens the sat nav took us to a dead end with no car sales garage - so the
story goes full circle in the end!
What other experience would you want me to dig deeper into, Ezra? A day at
work? A visit to Tesco? Another drive in the car? I'll do my best and be as
honest as possible (I've nothing against the metric system - it just seems odd
that I have to fight an odd american who keeps changing his name who admits he
has never been here but 'knows' more than I do about life here!!!)
________________________________
From: ezra.steinb...@comcast.net
To: barkatf...@hotmail.com; usma@colostate.edu
Subject: Re: [USMA:44516] Re: metric Britain
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 09:41:54 -0700
It seems like Stephen makes a good point. Perhaps he can describe a typical
(even if a bit synthesized) day to illustrate the various encounters with
Imperial that pop throughout his day. I think this would give me (as a distant
American) a better feel for the everyday experience the typical Briton has of
Imperial vs metric.
thanks,
Ezra
----- Original Message -----
From: Stephen Humphreys
To: U.S. Metric Association
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 7:02 AM
Subject: [USMA:44516] Re: metric Britain
If you can ignore measures related to moving around anywhere outside your home
(whether on foot on bike or in car), or if you can avoid talking to other
Britons, or if you can avoid reading newspapers or listening to the TV or if
you can live without the radio ie - If reading the side of cartons and looking
on the edge of a bottle constitutes the extent that the UK has become very
metric friendly then.....
yes.
you have a point!
:-D
P.S. I also believe this is the way the USA is becoming regarding metric - ie
metric progress in labelling
________________________________
From: j...@frewston.plus.com
To: usma@colostate.edu
Subject: [USMA:44507] Re: metric Britain
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 13:34:12 +0100
At the risk of flogging a dead horse, the attached scans confirm that Britain
is far more metric than people like Stephen Humphreys like to make out. One of
the scans shows a recipe that is on a small packing slip/newsletter that comes
with a weekly organic veggie box my other half has on order from a local farm,
Woodlands Farm (this really is local, not national or even county-wide). The
recipe is metric. This from a farmer in Lincolnshire, a very conservative (and
Conservative) part of the country. [For US readers, Conservatives are similar
to Republicans, i.e. right wing as opposed to left wing Labour, equivalent
to Democrats.]
The other scans are from an installation booklet that came with a new electric
shower I recently bought. Apart from a single reference to an inlet pipe
diameter, it is ENTIRELY metric.
I believe that, as I've said before, it is politicians aided and abetted by,
for whatever reason, a hostile UK press, who are trying to prevent Britain from
becoming fully metric. I believe the average person is quite comfortable with
metric - how else to explain, for example, the recipe I've attached? There was
no legal compulsion for it to be printed in metric - yet Woodland Farm
obviously felt that was what their customers wanted.
Have a good Easter everybody - I'm off now for my 400 km drive to my cousins's
flat in Bournemouth.
Cheers
John F-L
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeremiah MacGregor
To: U.S. Metric Association
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 5:44 AM
Subject: [USMA:44499] Re: metric Britain
You are deliberately trying to obfuscate the issue. The man simply did an
inventory of his kitchen cupboards and refrigerator to get a sample of
how British industry marks their packages. He proved that the vast majority
are metric only. Thus in all honest from his inventory we can say British
industry is NOT imperial friendly.
Where measurement is important, such as in engineering and manufacturing, again
metric is dominant if not the only system used. In this environment there is
no imperial and definitely no dual..
In buying a ladder, there is no measurement. You buy it by description. In
making a ladder there is measurement and those units are metric (millimetres).
Stephen, everyone knows you use minute and insignificant details in order to
present a far different picture then reality. You really need to wake up and
get real. Your fantasy version of the use of imperial is very opposite that of
the real world.
Have you ever done an inventory like John did? Or is your cupboard and
refrigerator bare due to your personal boycott of anything metric?
Jerry
________________________________
From: Stephen Humphreys <barkatf...@hotmail.com>
To: jeremiahmacgre...@rocketmail.com; U.S. Metric Association
<usma@colostate.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2009 3:05:52 PM
Subject: RE: [USMA:44421] Re: metric Britain
In all honesty - you could approach this at an imperial-friendly or
metric-friendly (or dual-friendly) argument to prove a point.
I'd suggest that there's prob more metric than imperial however with things
regarding items where measurement is important you'll usually get imperial or
dual.
I had to buy a ladder most recently -you can probably guess the length shown
and the human weight it cold withstand - Thus for that shopping experience it
was excusively 'dual'.
I'm not sure why you reacted so bizzarely to this "Jerry" - most people know
how it is.
________________________________
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 19:14:09 -0700
From: jeremiahmacgre...@rocketmail.com
Subject: [USMA:44421] Re: metric Britain
To: usma@colostate.edu
John,
Shame on you for showing us that imperial is virtually dead in the UK. Stephen
wanted everyone here to believe that imperial is everywhere. I sure would like
to see what is in Stephen's cupboards and fridge. If a person refuses to buy
anything metric then I would expect his fridge to contain only milk and his
cupboards to contain chalk, pear and apple spread, Specialty coffee for
cafetierres and some Belgian Waffles (not shown).
Jerry
________________________________
From: John Frewen-Lord <j...@frewston.plus.com>
To: U.S. Metric Association <usma@colostate.edu>
Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009 1:39:24 PM
Subject: [USMA:44400] metric Britain
Regarding the recent discussions on dual marking/labelling in respect of the
UK, I just thought I'd do a quick check on various items I have in my house. I
have listed a total of 57 items (no connection to Mr Heinz!), these I feel
being somewhat representative of our shopping and DIY activities. This is far,
far from exhaustive (we obviously have far too much stuff in our house!). Some
items are national name brands (e.g. Branston, makers of pickle and other
garnishes), and are shown in single quotes. Tesco, Asda (owned by Wal-Mart),
Morrisons, Somerfield and Waitrose are UK supermarket chains, Tesco being the
biggest. I couldn't find any Sainsburys items, another supermarket chain, so I
guess we don't shop there much! B&Q, Wickes and Homebase are DIY chains.
I found just four items that had imperial marking as well as metric - and for
only one of them was the quantity a rational imperial quantity (but shown as
metric first). However, this is an item we have had in our fridge for a long
time, and it is quite likely to have since been repackaged in a rational metric
size. The interesting thing is that I really had to hunt for ANYTHING that had
an imperial marking - everything IS metric.
That said, some of the metric sizes are a bit odd (740 mL, 340 g, etc). But
still metric, no imperial shown.
I have shown the quantity labelling EXACTLY as it appears on the packaging,
errors and all.
If you like metric (and we obviously all do, with the exception of Stephen
Humphreys), then enjoy!!
John F-L
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Garage/workshop
B&Q 'Zorbo' halogen light fixture - base 50 cm long, projection 70 cm long
Wickes quick drying varnish - 1 Litre
B&Q bevelled edge mirror - 600 mm x 600 mm (24" x 24" approx.) 4mm thick 3.6kg
weight
Wickes marking chalk - 50g/1.75oz
Homebase pine cladding - 94mm x 9mm, Length = 2.4metre
B&Q Plastic angle - 2400 x 12 x 12
B&Q Chamferred architrave [wood door trim in US-speak] - 15mm x 45mm x 2.1M
[that is an upper case M]
Wickes pine Scotia moulding - 15 x 15 x 2400
Wickes silicone sealant - 310 ml
B&Q foam/rubber draft excluder - 15mm x 5.1m
Halfords windscreen [windshield in US-speak] washer antifreeze concentrate - 2
Litres (makes up to 5 Litres of washer fluid)
Food and kitchen
Specialty coffee for cafetierres, package of 8 boxes, each box - 75g/2.65oz
Morrisons pre-packed bacon - 250 g
'Natures Best' cod liver oil - 300ml
'Pure' non-dairy soya spread - 500g
'Whole Foods' pear & apple spread - 227g/8oz
'Bay Tree' Christmas marmalade - 340g
Morrisons pre-wrapped individually priced broccoli - 0.370 kg [and priced at
192p/kg]
Morrisons pre-packaged mozzarella cheese - 200g
Evian bottled water - 1l [cursive l]
Tesco bottled water - 5 Litres
Quaker instant porridge oats - 1 kg
Tesco grapefruit juice - 1 Litre
'Veggie Wash' fruit and vegetable wash - 500ml
Tesco frozen peas - 1 kg
'Julian Graves' rice crackers - 250g
Somerfield custard powder - 300 g
'Amoy' soy sauce - 250ml
'Young's' 5 Coley Fillets (frozen) - 500 g
'Branston' canned spaghetti Bolognese - 410 g
'Lindt' Dark Chocolate - 100 g
Tesco kitchen foil - 10 metres, 30cm wide approx.
Waitrose syrup - 740ml
'Birds Eye' petis pois - 750g
Cleaners/laundry
'Flash' cleaning spray - 500 ml
'Fairy' washing up liquid - 500ml
Tesco dishwasher powder - 3 kg
Tesco fabric conditioner - 1 Litre
'Finish' dishwasher salt - 2 kg
Asda dishwasher rinse aid - 250 ml
Boots [national chemist/drugstore chain] sterilising liquid - 600 ml
Somerfield bathroom spray cleaner - 500 ml
'Domestos' spray cleaner - 500ml
'Delta' carper cleaner refill - 500ml
'Ecover' ecological laundry detergent - 1,5 L
'Vanish' laundry spray treatment - 500ml
Asda toilet cleanser - 500ml
'Shower Shine' shower cleaner - Big 1 Litre Value for the price of 750ml
Bathroom
Tesco shaving foam - 250 ml
RightGuard stick deodorant - 50 g
'Nivea' face wash - 30 ml
L'Oreal shampoo/conditioner - 250ml
'Imperial Leather' 4-pack bar soap - 4 x 125g
'Wella' hair toner - 14ml
'Boots' SPF15 suntan lotion - 200 ml
'Nivea' spray deodorant - 92g/150ml
Tesco herbal shampoo - 750ml
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