I call this "frustration" lol!!! John (P Schweisthal) - Why are you so obsessed with making out the UK is more metric than it really is? Surely you should be concentrating on making the US more metric and not bothering with why imperial still remains popular in the UK (hence the existence of groups like UKMA)? What have you done to promote metric in the USA? (And *please* don't answer with something like 'I tell Americans how metric the UK is with records, shops, yellow pixies, etc)? Seems like you don't really care about metric in the USA - just nonsense about pretend metric in the UK!! I don't get it!!!
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 21:16:37 -0700 From: jeremiahmacgre...@rocketmail.com Subject: Re: [USMA:44549] Re: metric Britain To: barkatf...@hotmail.com; usma@colostate.edu From: Stephen Humphreys <barkatf...@hotmail.com> To: U.S. Metric Association <usma@colostate.edu> Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 6:33:50 PM Subject: [USMA:44549] Re: metric Britain Aha! You have picked up on a very interesting point there - and one that reminds me of something you can do WITHOUT boarding that American Airlines flight to Heathrow!! Local Radio! Over here you'll find that local radio tends to be 'phone in' chat based during the rush hours (ie around 7 to 10 am or 4 to 6 pm). So.... if you do the math(s) to work out the relevant time where you live in the US then you could probably 'listen in' on the website for the station concerned. So - for instance - BBC Radio London or BBC Radio Berkshire will have the 'listen now' facilities. Also - you can hear the news bulletins every half hour to hear how news events are handled. Stephen makes it sound like the only words used on the radio are measurements. So when one tunes in all one would ever hear is one unit after the other. Maybe to Stephen this would be heaven but to everyone else utter boredom. As far as 'reading' - I think that even the pro-met UK contributors here will say that the press here are 'imperial heavy' so to speak. The press is known to provide deceptive and untrue information. So I would not be surprised if it was not very metric. In relation to other things - height and weight (as in human) tend to be imperial. I'm sure that depends on where you go. In the doctors office and hospital where it is most important the patient is measured and weighed in metric and the data is recorded in metric. When ones life is at stake, only metric can be trusted to be right. I'm a 'cat fan' and this is where we have odd behaviour by the food companies (for example). Basically - when we talk about our cat's weight it's expressed in pounds (no stones usually - although cats don't tend to get that heavy although we do have a norwegian forest cat). However the food packaging companies will talk about what to serve you cat based upon the cats weight in kg. Again - no-one 'forced' them to use kg but - take aside a support for one system or another for just a moment - I find it odd that what they print is at odds with how people actually measure (including at cat shows). Obviously Stephen must be a minority on this issue. If pounds were used to the extent Stephen implies the industry would use them. They have a reason to use kilograms. As noted with humans, when an animals life is at stake only metric can be trusted to be right. As far as metric units that have 'made it' into common parlance... Litres have entered vocabulary. All medical things (except - again - human mass) will be discussed in metric. Except in the doctors office and hospitals where it is important human mass is measured and recorded in kilograms. If Stephen ever looked at his own personal record he would never see an imperial unit on it. He should be thankful they don't use imperial. km are very seldom used - in fact I literally cannot remember the last time I heard another Brit mention km. Quite obvious though really - as there is no exposure. That is why Stephen is opposed to road sign conversion. It would be a learning too and create exposure. Stephen is opposed to exposing people to metric units for fear they would learn them, use them and forget imperial as many have already done with units like the metre. Exposure has made the litre acceptable. I've heard from pro-mets that 'metres' are sometimes used in place of yards. I can say that only two people I know do that - one person at work and an army friend who will probably use metres in his work. What Stephen is saying he was when these people spoke metres in his presence, his whining and pouting did not work to convince them to say yards instead of metres. Stephen is also in denial that the term yard when used is hidden metres. Stones are only really used for human weight although I have seen it used for dogs. For approximations people tend to use inches for smallish things - but again if you pick up a hifi magazine for example you'll see cm. >From what I have been told people us millimetres for small items. They use >metric units for something measured and precise and inches when referring to >something vague and imprecise. Metric units are used in magazines because the >information comes from the factories and engineers and they use only metric. I always find this extremely odd. That people use inches to describe things but magazines for specifications almost always use cm (sometimes mm). The difference between being vague and being precise. Inches for approximations, metric units for the way things are engineered, measured and made and where precision counts. Gallons get used in mpg - and for exageration - "I drank 10 gallons of water". It's also used in attic tanks but thats not really 'casual talk' Except gallons are never measured or used in the sale of any item. The use of gallons in a compound unit like mpg is not the same as using the gallon on its own. As in exaggeration, this is what i said before. Imperial unts are used where imprecision is the norm. kg is used a lot on TV - possibly more than pounds. And it's made it's way in to casual talk. Because that is the unit people have gotten use to from using it at the deli and fish counters in the supermarkets. Exposure is a wonderful thing. But I urge you to tune in to these radio stations- that way you can hear real brits - without the 'baggage' of bias or needing to ignore a frustrated mad man from Ohio during those times when he's allowed to use the computer. Hearing it 'for real' will give you the best insight into life over here. Funny how Stephen ignored typical on the job experience and shopping. People spend most of their waking moments at work and shopping. He wants you to think they spend their entire life in front of the radio getting their daily dose of imperial. This is what frustrates Stephen so much about the UK being so heavily metric. He has to spend his entire day driving around on the roads and waiting for the afternoon talk show in hopes of hearing an imperial word being spoken. Why doesn't Stephen talk about what the average person does on the job and what units the workers are exposed to? Why not talk about the huge amount of metric goods from the supermarkets that fill countless cupboards and fridges? Stephen thinks that by avoiding the majority parts of the day where people are immersed in metric he can continue to give everyone this biased observation with a few metric uses thrown in because no one would believe him if he presented a rosy imperial report. One final thing. And I blame this on how we're taught at school and the stat's involvement in measures over here. And that is - we're probably somewhat less 'verbose' regarding measured in the UK compared to the USA or Europe. I notice with US TV that measures tend to get used quite a bit (you lot MUST love the US based TV series called "Bones" - it's crammed full of metric!). Why not blame it on yourself? If you didn't resist metric so much maybe you wouldn't be so frustrated by it all and not express a desire to move to Barbados because you have convinced yourself they are less metric then the UK? So I hope this helps. It would be easy to say that people here use furlongs, minims, leagues, grommits, etc etc but why would I do that? It would serve no purpose so instead I direct you towards local radio to hear real people. If I did come out with "Jerry-mandering nonsense" then you'd be able to see through me as soon as you hear one of those shows. It helps all right! It helps us understand to what lengths you have gone through to avoid dealing with the overwhelming amount of metric in your presence. Ok - back to enjoying Easter!!! And all of the metric treats. Steve Jerry Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 21:18:47 +0000 From: ezra.steinb...@comcast.net To: usma@colostate.edu CC: usma@colostate.edu Subject: [USMA:44545] Re: metric Britain Thank you for the helpful details, Stephen. Since you mentioned what people read or what they hear/see on the radio/telly, perhaps you can describe what you see and hear in an ordinary day in those venues as well as what you hear in daily conversation between people and which units they spontaneously use in everyday conversation in the UK. Cheers, Ezra ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Humphreys" <barkatf...@hotmail.com> To: "U.S. Metric Association" <usma@colostate.edu> Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 10:49:32 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: [USMA:44537] Re: metric Britain Thanks for the chance Ezra - much appreciated. To be honest the best way is to visit this country - although I admit that's a rather costly option!! I also think - to be fair - that your opinion can shape the way you see things. Say I was a conservative MP - and you asked me how well Labour was governing the UK - how would I respond? That said - I really honestly do see myself as 'pro-choice' with a 'general preference' to imperial (but not always) so it's not as clear cut as polarised politicians. You've got me thinking though! Maybe I should take a moment to think about these things. We just popped out to see an old Stag (not wildlife, an old Triumph car) and you can assume that as I was driving my dash presented me with miles/ mph, and the signs I saw were almost all miles/yds (there were some width/ height but these were imperial as I was driving country routes). The LCD display showed my engine temp in Celsius - I have it that way as the coolant is water - thus? I think you can see my thinking here!! ;-) I had to pop to halfords on the way back - they sell car bits. I need some oil for the mini. There are sat nav ads everywhere. Now originally I noted that they always advertised the unit with a visible 'metres' on the advertised screen (as if UK drivers would want that) - as John F-L might say - no one forced them to do that. Now, however they're all advertised using yards in the screen shot. I wonder if people wanted to make sure that they're unit matched their speedo, roads etc? I've yet to see someone set their GPS to metres. So - I go into Halfords. What do I buy? 4.5 Litres of Magnetec Oil - up clicks my 'metric quota'. Looking back so far - what's the most visual element to my day? I'd say the celsius in my car and the imperial road signs. My mini's spec tells me how many pints to put in - BUT - when I do the oil change I tend to put in 4 litres and use the dipstick for the rest. So measures do get involved a bit but I'd argue that it's more like the Tesco debate - ie the use of measures is less important than the scale visually. That's why I asked a question (a while ago) whether if US pro-mets had just one 'Genie wish' would they 'do the roads' or 'do the shelf edge'. I think you all know what would be preferable. I will always argue that the best gauge is what people 'SAY' and 'ACTUALLY READ' rather than the funny print on the side of a packet. Maybe that's why roads and pints at the pub are seemingly guarded by politicians and the press? Because that's a really tangible alteration that people would actually notice. Also - please remember that during a course of a day measurements make up a tiny portion of living - lets get some scale (insert pun) to this - there are more important things in life. Mine - today - was seeing this stag. As it happens the sat nav took us to a dead end with no car sales garage - so the story goes full circle in the end! What other experience would you want me to dig deeper into, Ezra? A day at work? A visit to Tesco? Another drive in the car? I'll do my best and be as honest as possible (I've nothing against the metric system - it just seems odd that I have to fight an odd american who keeps changing his name who admits he has never been here but 'knows' more than I do about life here!!!) From: ezra.steinb...@comcast.net To: barkatf...@hotmail.com; usma@colostate.edu Subject: Re: [USMA:44516] Re: metric Britain Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 09:41:54 -0700 It seems like Stephen makes a good point. Perhaps he can describe a typical (even if a bit synthesized) day to illustrate the various encounters with Imperial that pop throughout his day. I think this would give me (as a distant American) a better feel for the everyday experience the typical Briton has of Imperial vs metric. thanks, Ezra ----- Original Message ----- From: Stephen Humphreys To: U.S. Metric Association Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 7:02 AM Subject: [USMA:44516] Re: metric Britain If you can ignore measures related to moving around anywhere outside your home (whether on foot on bike or in car), or if you can avoid talking to other Britons, or if you can avoid reading newspapers or listening to the TV or if you can live without the radio ie - If reading the side of cartons and looking on the edge of a bottle constitutes the extent that the UK has become very metric friendly then..... yes. you have a point! :-D P.S. I also believe this is the way the USA is becoming regarding metric - ie metric progress in labelling From: j...@frewston.plus.com To: usma@colostate.edu Subject: [USMA:44507] Re: metric Britain Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 13:34:12 +0100 At the risk of flogging a dead horse, the attached scans confirm that Britain is far more metric than people like Stephen Humphreys like to make out. One of the scans shows a recipe that is on a small packing slip/newsletter that comes with a weekly organic veggie box my other half has on order from a local farm, Woodlands Farm (this really is local, not national or even county-wide). The recipe is metric. This from a farmer in Lincolnshire, a very conservative (and Conservative) part of the country. [For US readers, Conservatives are similar to Republicans, i.e. right wing as opposed to left wing Labour, equivalent to Democrats.] The other scans are from an installation booklet that came with a new electric shower I recently bought. Apart from a single reference to an inlet pipe diameter, it is ENTIRELY metric. I believe that, as I've said before, it is politicians aided and abetted by, for whatever reason, a hostile UK press, who are trying to prevent Britain from becoming fully metric. I believe the average person is quite comfortable with metric - how else to explain, for example, the recipe I've attached? There was no legal compulsion for it to be printed in metric - yet Woodland Farm obviously felt that was what their customers wanted. Have a good Easter everybody - I'm off now for my 400 km drive to my cousins's flat in Bournemouth. Cheers John F-L ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeremiah MacGregor To: U.S. Metric Association Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 5:44 AM Subject: [USMA:44499] Re: metric Britain You are deliberately trying to obfuscate the issue. The man simply did an inventory of his kitchen cupboards and refrigerator to get a sample of how British industry marks their packages. He proved that the vast majority are metric only. Thus in all honest from his inventory we can say British industry is NOT imperial friendly. Where measurement is important, such as in engineering and manufacturing, again metric is dominant if not the only system used. In this environment there is no imperial and definitely no dual.. In buying a ladder, there is no measurement. You buy it by description. In making a ladder there is measurement and those units are metric (millimetres). Stephen, everyone knows you use minute and insignificant details in order to present a far different picture then reality. You really need to wake up and get real. Your fantasy version of the use of imperial is very opposite that of the real world. Have you ever done an inventory like John did? Or is your cupboard and refrigerator bare due to your personal boycott of anything metric? Jerry From: Stephen Humphreys <barkatf...@hotmail.com> To: jeremiahmacgre...@rocketmail.com; U.S. Metric Association <usma@colostate.edu> Sent: Monday, April 6, 2009 3:05:52 PM Subject: RE: [USMA:44421] Re: metric Britain In all honesty - you could approach this at an imperial-friendly or metric-friendly (or dual-friendly) argument to prove a point. I'd suggest that there's prob more metric than imperial however with things regarding items where measurement is important you'll usually get imperial or dual. I had to buy a ladder most recently -you can probably guess the length shown and the human weight it cold withstand - Thus for that shopping experience it was excusively 'dual'. I'm not sure why you reacted so bizzarely to this "Jerry" - most people know how it is. Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 19:14:09 -0700 From: jeremiahmacgre...@rocketmail.com Subject: [USMA:44421] Re: metric Britain To: usma@colostate.edu John, Shame on you for showing us that imperial is virtually dead in the UK. Stephen wanted everyone here to believe that imperial is everywhere. I sure would like to see what is in Stephen's cupboards and fridge. If a person refuses to buy anything metric then I would expect his fridge to contain only milk and his cupboards to contain chalk, pear and apple spread, Specialty coffee for cafetierres and some Belgian Waffles (not shown). Jerry From: John Frewen-Lord <j...@frewston.plus.com> To: U.S. Metric Association <usma@colostate.edu> Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009 1:39:24 PM Subject: [USMA:44400] metric Britain Regarding the recent discussions on dual marking/labelling in respect of the UK, I just thought I'd do a quick check on various items I have in my house. I have listed a total of 57 items (no connection to Mr Heinz!), these I feel being somewhat representative of our shopping and DIY activities. This is far, far from exhaustive (we obviously have far too much stuff in our house!). Some items are national name brands (e.g. Branston, makers of pickle and other garnishes), and are shown in single quotes. Tesco, Asda (owned by Wal-Mart), Morrisons, Somerfield and Waitrose are UK supermarket chains, Tesco being the biggest. I couldn't find any Sainsburys items, another supermarket chain, so I guess we don't shop there much! B&Q, Wickes and Homebase are DIY chains. I found just four items that had imperial marking as well as metric - and for only one of them was the quantity a rational imperial quantity (but shown as metric first). However, this is an item we have had in our fridge for a long time, and it is quite likely to have since been repackaged in a rational metric size. The interesting thing is that I really had to hunt for ANYTHING that had an imperial marking - everything IS metric. That said, some of the metric sizes are a bit odd (740 mL, 340 g, etc). But still metric, no imperial shown. I have shown the quantity labelling EXACTLY as it appears on the packaging, errors and all. If you like metric (and we obviously all do, with the exception of Stephen Humphreys), then enjoy!! John F-L -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Garage/workshop B&Q 'Zorbo' halogen light fixture - base 50 cm long, projection 70 cm long Wickes quick drying varnish - 1 Litre B&Q bevelled edge mirror - 600 mm x 600 mm (24" x 24" approx.) 4mm thick 3.6kg weight Wickes marking chalk - 50g/1.75oz Homebase pine cladding - 94mm x 9mm, Length = 2.4metre B&Q Plastic angle - 2400 x 12 x 12 B&Q Chamferred architrave [wood door trim in US-speak] - 15mm x 45mm x 2.1M [that is an upper case M] Wickes pine Scotia moulding - 15 x 15 x 2400 Wickes silicone sealant - 310 ml B&Q foam/rubber draft excluder - 15mm x 5.1m Halfords windscreen [windshield in US-speak] washer antifreeze concentrate - 2 Litres (makes up to 5 Litres of washer fluid) Food and kitchen Specialty coffee for cafetierres, package of 8 boxes, each box - 75g/2.65oz Morrisons pre-packed bacon - 250 g 'Natures Best' cod liver oil - 300ml 'Pure' non-dairy soya spread - 500g 'Whole Foods' pear & apple spread - 227g/8oz 'Bay Tree' Christmas marmalade - 340g Morrisons pre-wrapped individually priced broccoli - 0.370 kg [and priced at 192p/kg] Morrisons pre-packaged mozzarella cheese - 200g Evian bottled water - 1l [cursive l] Tesco bottled water - 5 Litres Quaker instant porridge oats - 1 kg Tesco grapefruit juice - 1 Litre 'Veggie Wash' fruit and vegetable wash - 500ml Tesco frozen peas - 1 kg 'Julian Graves' rice crackers - 250g Somerfield custard powder - 300 g 'Amoy' soy sauce - 250ml 'Young's' 5 Coley Fillets (frozen) - 500 g 'Branston' canned spaghetti Bolognese - 410 g 'Lindt' Dark Chocolate - 100 g Tesco kitchen foil - 10 metres, 30cm wide approx. Waitrose syrup - 740ml 'Birds Eye' petis pois - 750g Cleaners/laundry 'Flash' cleaning spray - 500 ml 'Fairy' washing up liquid - 500ml Tesco dishwasher powder - 3 kg Tesco fabric conditioner - 1 Litre 'Finish' dishwasher salt - 2 kg Asda dishwasher rinse aid - 250 ml Boots [national chemist/drugstore chain] sterilising liquid - 600 ml Somerfield bathroom spray cleaner - 500 ml 'Domestos' spray cleaner - 500ml 'Delta' carper cleaner refill - 500ml 'Ecover' ecological laundry detergent - 1,5 L 'Vanish' laundry spray treatment - 500ml Asda toilet cleanser - 500ml 'Shower Shine' shower cleaner - Big 1 Litre Value for the price of 750ml Bathroom Tesco shaving foam - 250 ml RightGuard stick deodorant - 50 g 'Nivea' face wash - 30 ml L'Oreal shampoo/conditioner - 250ml 'Imperial Leather' 4-pack bar soap - 4 x 125g 'Wella' hair toner - 14ml 'Boots' SPF15 suntan lotion - 200 ml 'Nivea' spray deodorant - 92g/150ml Tesco herbal shampoo - 750ml Windows Live Messenger just got better. 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