Aside from milk, are there any other products sold in supermarkets in the UK? One gets the impression that all one can buy is milk.
In the US our shelves are stocked with thousands of different items. What about the UK? Don't they have thousands of different items for sale too? And aren't the vast majority of them (>90 %) labeled in rounded metric only? So what does it really mean if you find some remnant product like milk in a remnant size? Even with that in mind it isn't 100 % in remnant units, as there is rounded metric milk sizes too. Stephen's claim that he purchases items by their "visible scale" proves the vast majority of products are labeled in rounded metric only. Otherwise Stephen would know their imperial size and make mention of it frequently instead of constantly sounding like a broken 300 mm record and repeating the same old dribble about milk container sizes. Jerry ________________________________ From: Ken Cooper <k_cooper1...@yahoo.com> To: U.S. Metric Association <usma@colostate.edu> Sent: Friday, May 1, 2009 4:46:40 PM Subject: [USMA:44964] RE: Supplementary indications Stephen said "Realistically though - it still must be the case that people pick up a can, tin, bottle etc of red bull/coke/etc on visual size rather than be specific about the numbering on the side of the product" How would you describe this can then Stephen? 473 ml/1 US pt isn't exactly a common size in the UK. Without using measurement, how can you distinguish it from the 440 ml & 500 ml cans that are commonly available? "(even if "he" [ahem] wouldn't allow it lol!)". It's you that claims I'm a TSO, Stephen. That's the sort of decisions they make. "Obviously the figures are there to meet regulations but ultimately the customer would choose a packed item on it's visual scale." Have you been to Tesco recently Stephen? Have you seen the new size of Rice Krispie packages? Can you tell them apart from the 500 g packs on a "visual scale"? "I see the 2l coke and pint of milk as the only real examples where figures are used in packed supermarket items." Yeah. No-one has ever suggested that a bag of sugar can be used to visualise a kilogramme. And wine doesn't come in a standard 750ml "wine bottle" or anything. And didn't you go on (and on & on) about a waffle marked with a supplementary imperial indication? "In fact a lot of supermarkets have adopted putting a large unitless number on the side of the cartons that represents the number of pints" A lot? Is that one or two? What a ridiculous exaggeration. Ezra - In case you were deliberately mislead - yes there are other firms that pack milk in round metric but as you look at the shelves the "standard" milks - so to speak - ie the ordinary skimmed, semi, and full fat - make up the vast visual bulk (usually on a platform and then palleted up beneath the platform). Yes Stephen. This is true in Tesco. How about standard milks in the Scottish Co-op? As I told you when we discussed this last, the sizes available are 500ml, 568ml/1pt, 1 litre, 2 litres & 3 litres. In this shop, the "vast visual bulk" is metric only, with some dual as opposed to your example, where the "vast visual bulk" is dual, with some metric-only. It is easy to find individual examples of shops ranging from 100% dual to 100% metric-only. Would you agree with the fact that there is practically no Imperial-only milk available in supermarkets as they do not sell returnable containers? As I have stated, there is an increasing amount of "metric-only" like Cravendale or Fresh'n'Lo, which is not all soya, goat or "dog" milk (I assume that pregnancy brought that non-existant product to your mind?) --- On Fri, 1/5/09, Stephen Humphreys <barkatf...@hotmail..com> wrote: From: Stephen Humphreys <barkatf...@hotmail.com> Subject: [USMA:44948] RE: Supplementary indications To: "U.S. Metric Association" <usma@colostate.edu> Date: Friday, 1 May, 2009, 9:22 AM Realistically though - it still must be the case that people pick up a can, tin, bottle etc of red bull/coke/etc on visual size rather than be specific about the numbering on the side of the product (even if "he" [ahem] wouldn't allow it lol!). Obviously the figures are there to meet regulations but ultimately the customer would choose a packed item on it's visual scale. Needless to say I fully understand why this is an important topic for those who are (genuinely) pro-metric though. In the UK there's a bit of an attachment to the "pinta" in respect to milk and just as the 2 liter bottle of coke has become popular the pint-of-milk remains popular regarding actual usage of numbers and packed items. I see the 2l coke and pint of milk as the only real examples where figures are used in packed supermarket items. In fact a lot of supermarkets have adopted putting a large unitless number on the side of the cartons that represents the number of pints therein (I wonder if this is to allow that number to have precedence but be within the rules due to lack of words). Ezra - In case you were deliberately mislead - yes there are other firms that pack milk in round metric but as you look at the shelves the "standard" milks - so to speak - ie the ordinary skimmed, semi, and full fat - make up the vast visual bulk (usually on a platform and then palleted up beneath the platform). I concur with MArtin entirely regarding this point. Thus to claim that 'metric milk' makes up a large proportion of milks is extremely misleading as if you looked at the entire milk counter you'll see mainly the 'ordinary' milk containers - which show imperial/metric notation. If you look about for goat milk, soya milk, milk from a specific farm, low lactose milk, and possibly Dog milk in Argyll and Bute!, then combined they could be used to exaggerate the different available milk brands but this ignores the visual and most sold milk types. Unfortunately I cannot think of another similar example to further illustrate the point. ________________________________ Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 02:32:49 +0000 From: ezra.steinb...@comcast.net To: usma@colostate.edu Subject: [USMA:44938] Supplementary indications Yes, here's another interesting side effect of the FPLA not yet being amended to allow metric-only labeling. My hunch is that Red Bull would switch to a rational metric size once the amendment is ever adopted! Speaking of metric-only labeling options, I'm wondering if Paul Trusten has any news regarding New York State and the UPLR? Ezra ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Cooper" <k_cooper1...@yahoo.com> To: "Ezra Steinberg" <ezra.steinb...@comcast.net> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 4:04:24 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: Your question on "Metric Views" That's just about it, Ezra. The only time any action would be likely to be taken would be if the US pint wasn't specifically described as such. I wouldn't allow "473 ml 1 pt" on a package for sale in the UK. Interestingly, Red Bull (an Austrian energy drink) have just introduced a new 473 ml size. There's no supplementary indication marked on the cans I've seen, but I wouldn't be surprised if the same cans (with different markings) appeared in the US --- On Wed, 29/4/09, Ezra Steinberg <ezra.steinb...@comcast.net> wrote: From: Ezra Steinberg <ezra.steinb...@comcast.net> Subject: Re: Your question on "Metric Views" To: "Ken Cooper" <k_cooper1...@yahoo.com> Date: Wednesday, 29 April, 2009, 2:22 AM Thanks for all the pertinent detail, Ken. That really clears it up. Bottom line: manufacturers can continue to put Imperial units on their packages as they have done before and no one will squeak about it so long as they comply with all the other laws that you have pointed out. Cheers, Ezra ----- Original Message ----- From: Ken Cooper To: ezra.steinb...@comcast.net Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 6:49 PM Subject: Your question on "Metric Views" Ezra I note that you have asked a question on "Metric Views" regarding my statement that “On 1/1/2010, Imperial loses its status as a “supplementary indication”.. IMO, that doesn’t mean that it is forbidden from appearing (as long as the metric measure is primary)” I'll try to set out my thoughts on this matter below. Firstly, some context. My statement above was made in response to Gene's questions about markings on packages. For the avoidance of doubt, I am referring to packages made up on metric equipment & bearing a primary metric marking. As an example, lets assume that we are talking about a package of sausages made up on a metric scale that works in 2 g divisions. The package weighs 454 g. Currently, UK law requires that the package must be marked "454 g". The packer may also choose to mark the "e-mark" (a metrological passport throughout the EEC) and a supplementary indication. The full label W&M label will therefore read "454 g e 1 lb" This is currently explicitly permitted by virtue of Section 8 (5A) of the Weights & Measures Act 1985 8 (5A) Nothing in this section precludes the use for trade up to and including 31st December 2009 of any supplementary indication; and for this purpose any indication of quantity ('the imperial indication') is a supplementary indication if— a) it is expressed in a unit of measurement other than a metric unit, b) it accompanies an indication of quantity expressed in a metric unit ('the metric indication') and is not itself authorised for use in the circumstances as a primary indication of quantity, and c) the metric indication is the more prominent, the imperial indication being, in particular, expressed in characters no larger than those of the metric indication. The effect of this section, as I state in my original post, is that Imperial loses it's status as a supplementary indication on 1/1/2010. Pretty black & white so far, I hope! Now we get into legal argument......... If I was a trader that wished to continue dual marking, I would frame my argument like this:- I am weighing the goods in metric & marking the goods in metric. Therefore my metric equipment is in use for trade & the weight determined by that equipment is the weight marked upon the pack of sausages. Under UK criminal law, an act is legal unless it is specifically forbidden. I would agree that imperial is no longer permitted as a supplementary indication, but can you point me at the section of the Weights & Measures Act that specifically forbids me from marking additional information in another measurement system? I'm using metric for trade purposes - not imperial! Now, the current opinion in O'Keefe states Quantity of goods This term does not appear to have received any judicial interpretation, at least in the context of weights and measures legislation. The expression is now causing difficulties due on the one hand to the general prohibition of the 'use for trade' of imperial units of measurement (by s 8), and on the other, to the absence of any more general prohibition of the use of such units, which might have more properly reflected the requirement of Council Directive 80/181/EEC as implemented in the UK by the Units of Measurement Regulations 1986, I cannot see a UK court convicting a defendant of "use for trade" of imperial measurement after 1/1/10 when he has complied with all relevant legislation regarding using metric equipment & marking a metric weight on the package (assuming that the additional imperial information is less prominent than the metric weight) This is purely my opinion, and will probably never be tested in a court now that the EU have announced the proposed changes to 80/181/EEC. For the avoidance of doubt, the UK Government may decide to enact legislation that specifically retains the definition of "Supplementary Indications", but IMO, there is no need for this legislation as there is nothing that specifically bans imperial from appearing. Finally, I would point out that (as far as I am aware) no action has been taken against US manufacturers that have marked "473 ml 1 US Pt" on packages sold in the UK. The US Pint is not an authorised supplementary indication, therefore if my interpretation of the law is incorrect, any package marked in this manner would be illegal. The fact that no enforcement action has been taken would tend to support my views on this matter. Feel free to share this email if you see fit. If anyone disagrees with my interpretation, challenge them to draft a criminal charge under the Weights & Measures Act 1985 that they think would stand up in court. Over the last few years, I've asked various pro-met & pro-imp UK posters to do this and no-one has ever come up with a suggested section number to frame the charge around never mind an actual draft charge! "Ken" ________________________________ " Upgrade to Internet Explorer 8 Optimised for MSN. " Download Now