Thank you fr ths Alexander, However, I'm still puzzled why you are so certain that folded top guitars were not introduced until the mid 18thC: that some/many instruments were converted in the 18thC does not, of course, mean that they were not known earlier. Regarding evidence for earlier instruments might I respectfully suggest you look at a wider range of instruments: the instrument illustrated in Baines (possibly the most widely known and readily available standard illustrated reference work) is just one that might be a 17thC instrument in original state. P's Theatrum Instrumentorum (Barenreiter facsimile 1976) has on plate XVI an instrument P calls 'Laute mit Abzugem oder Testudo Theorbato' which looks very similar to an archlute but with end fastening strings passing over (ie not ending on) a bridge. Finally, I'm not the only one who thinks the instrument may have been around earlier than you suppose (see Peter Forrester's recent communication). M
Alexander Batov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Why re-entrant tuning? On Wednesday, October 18, 2006 8:42 AM, Martyn Hodgson" wrote: > Indeed, the Preatorius depiction clearly shows the folded belly used in > the early 17thC (predating the use on the Neopolitan mandolin by over 100 > yrs). I wouldn't say it's all that clear, I can't see any visible fold on my illustration, unless you've got a better one or are looking into a different Praetorius ;) > What evidence is there that 'there wasn't any need' for a wire strung > folded belly etc guitar before the mid-18thC. Well, perhaps "there was a need", for example, for a hammered clavier in the early 17th century (one can easily imagine that the musicians then were craving for more expanded dynamic range on their harpsichords) but it took another 150 years or so for it to appear. As far as I know, there is no evidence (in form of surviving instruments, iconography, historical records etc) for the existence of the folded belly design on "guitar-like" instruments before c. mid-18th century. If there is such evidence (perhaps you know), then we can deal with it ... instead of doing so with imaginings. My reasoning for "there wasn't any need" is exactly the same as it was the case with some other instruments during the 16th - 18th centuries which have evolved as a result of changes and / or emergencies of either new musical styles or technological innovations and advances etc or , indeed, all of these combined. (I don't think one can ever be so precise in tracking down the exact picture why such and such line of development of a particular instrument took place in the history.) Battente guitars (as a family of different size instruments) seem to have emerged as a side line development of the Neapolitan mandoline family around 1740s; what we might now call as a "folk instrument" and it still remained as such in the Southern province of Italy (Calabria). It is also worth to have in mind that this seemingly large scale conversion of the 17th century guitars to folded belly construction around the mid-18th century and later, with subsequent shortening of the neck etc, also encompassed, although to a lesser extent, lute family instruments too ... and 'spoiled' some really beautiful ones (as for, example, an archlute E 528 from the Paris collection, with a possible attribution to Magno Dieffopruchar). > The question is wether such > instruments were played in the earlier period (ie 17thC): the 'need' for > a louder instrument in etc may have encouraged > such a development. Firstly, I don't quite see how we can project our modern ideas as to what would be suitable for the 17th century 'large scale entertainments' . Secondly, I don't quite see how the combined folded belly / metal strings construction can result in a louder instrument ...? Talking of wire-strung instruments, the contemporary members of the cittern family instruments could have easily satisfied such a role, by having: unconstricted soundboard in place where the bridge is situated (i.e. with no fold in there), higher bridge and shallower body - the qualities much more likely to result in a louder instrument (as compared to that with the deep-bodied, folded belly design). This is not to say that the flat bellied gut-stung 17th century "guitarra spanguola" (as we now know it could have been occasionally strung with silk strings too) could lend even more higher sound output than the metal-strung instruments of the time. Introduction of fan-brace pattern to the guitar (again around mid-18th century, this time in Spain) have taken it even further along the "loudness line" (unfortunately to the detriment of the sound, imho). > The examplar instrument is illustrated in Baines (European and American > /MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS) by two pictures Nos 294 and 295. Do you know its > whereabouts now? I haven't got this book, so can't tell more. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com --
