I also don't see that a bit of overlap presents any real difficulty. To take the theorbo again: no-one says that because the upper two courses of a large theorbo are tuned down an octave and the same notes can be easily found on other courses that this represents some sort of 'problem': it's simply a characteristic of the instrument.
You'll be aware of Pinnell's article in Early Music (july 1979) which 'postulated' a low octave tuning for the basses on Granata's chitara tiorbata and Gallot's guitare theorbee but presented no evidence whatsoever for what ought to be more properly called a suggestion rather than a postulate which indicates some basis of reasoning (Pinnell's source for other guitar tunings is Murphy's 1970 GSJ paper). Indeed, his transcriptions into staff notation rather show some of the problems with a low octave solution. From what he wrote I don't see that Pinnell actually played any of this music on a theorboed guitar and certainly the practical problems of such low pitched basses on a theorboed extension of only modest length was not even recognised. In retrospect it's perhaps this unfortunate article which did much of the damage and led many to assume low octave basses on these instruments. Martyn --- On Wed, 3/6/09, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Image of chitarra atiorbata To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Date: Wednesday, 3 June, 2009, 6:04 PM What you say is very interesting in a number of ways! What you say about preferences for low basses being a present day "prejudice" for a complete instrument hits the nail on the head. At least two people I know claim categorically that the fact that Granata has included music for chitarra atiorbata in his book proves that he also intended that there should be low basses for the music for standard 5-course guitar in the book too. This argument has always seemed to lack any logic to me! After all we are talking about two different instruments. Looking through the music there are occasionally places where the open courses would overlap with the stopped courses but this wouldn't necessrily be a problem. One thing that is noticeable is that Granata tends not to use the stopped 5th course very much. On the other hand you can't place too much reliance on a drawing like this one which may well not be accurate in respect of size etc. The Stradivarius specification for stringing does indicate octave stringing on the 4th and 5th courses. Would this matter if they overlap with the basses? A lot of unanswered questions here. Monica ----- Original Message ----- From: [1]Martyn Hodgson To: [2]Monica Hall Cc: [3]Vihuelalist Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 3:38 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Image of chitarra atiorbata On reflection I would veer to the side of octave high basses: purely around the practical problem of obtaining anything approaching a decent sound from low octave (gut) basses with such relatively short string length. For comparison, theorbo basses (which descending from A would be identical pitch to low octave chitarra attiorbata basses) require a string length typically from 150 to 170cm: in the representations of c.a.'s I've seen the basses seem much shorter than this. I think any preference these days for low basses might purely be a modern prejudice for a 'complete' instrument... Martyn --- On Fri, 22/5/09, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Image of chitarra atiorbata To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Date: Friday, 22 May, 2009, 5:57 PM > Did any concencus emerge from the last time (6 months?+ ago) these > instruments were discussed as to whether the basses were at the lower > octave (descending from a low octave strung 5th course - rather like a > theorbo) or the upper octave (descending from the higher re-entrant > string)? If so I missed it. I don't think we did reach any conclusion. the music in Granata does seem to suggest that the basses continue down from the lower octave of the 5th course. However in the Gallot ms the basses overlap with the 4th and 5th courses which suggests to me - for what it is worth that the 4th & 5th course might be re-entrant. Monica > > MH > --- On Thu, 21/5/09, Monica Hall <[4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: > > From: Monica Hall <[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Image of chitarra atiorbata > To: "Stuart Walsh" <[6]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[7]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Date: Thursday, 21 May, 2009, 9:39 PM > > But then the theorbo is the wrong way round. Someone else has > suggested > that the instruments are arranged like that deliberately to complement > one > another. > Monica > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Stuart Walsh" <[1][8]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> > To: "Monica Hall" <[2][9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 6:41 PM > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Image of chitarra atiorbata > > > >> Gary has said it is Ok for me to forward this message to the list. > >> > >> It is very interesting! > >> > >> Monica > >> > >> > > I'm sure you can flip images yourself but anyway, here's the image > > flipped in Photoshop. Looks like seven pegs on the second pegbox. > > > > > > > > Stuart > > > > > > > >>> I know I've spurred some conversations with all of you in the past > >>> about the engraving in one of the two surviving copies of Granata's > >>> Op. 3 containing a chitarr atiorbata. I've received a digital image > >>> from Carpentras and I've temporarily placed it on my Web page for > you > >>> to check: > >>> > >>> [3][10]http://www.library.appstate.edu/music/guitar/1651granata.html > >>> > >>> It's the second image on the page . . . > >>> > >>> Odd that it's left-handed, but I assume that's just an engraving > >>> reversal; GBG was obviously right-handed. This is by far the best > >>> look I've had of the image (I'm double checking with them currently > >>> to see if it is OK to put it on the Web; they may ask for me to > take > >>> it down, but I hope not, since the transaction was entirely free). > >>> > >>> Stephen: Does this even look like a technically feasible > instrument?? > >>> It sure seems like alot of strings crammed onto a fairly small > body. > >>> (No, you'll be glad to hear, I'll not ask for you to make me one!). > >>> > >>> Gary > >>> -- > >>> Gary R. Boye, Ph.D. > >>> Associate Professor and Music Librarian > >>> Appalachian State University > >> > >> > >> > >> To get on or off this list see list information at > >> [4][11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > - > >> > >> > >> No virus found in this incoming message. > >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >> Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.36/2126 - Release Date: > >> 05/21/09 06:22:00 > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > References > > 1. [12]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com > 2. [13]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > 3. [14]http://www.library.appstate.edu/music/guitar/1651granata.html > 4. [15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 6. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com 7. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu 8. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com 9. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 10. http://www.library.appstate.edu/music/guitar/1651granata.html 11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 12. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com 13. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 14. http://www.library.appstate.edu/music/guitar/1651granata.html 15. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html