Hi Monica and All,Newsidler is pretty definite - "mit durch streichen" and (I think) even specifies using the thumb. Similar six-note chords appear in Dalza as well, in contexts where there is no doubt that strumming is intended.
Nothing to do with strumming, but there was some mention earlier on this thread of fine recordings of music for 4c guitar, so I'd just like to remind everyone that you can hear splendid performances of all Mudarra's music for 4c guitar on the CD by Jacob Heringman and Catherine King (Gaudeamus - but I guess the CD may be out of print - is it on Magnatune? Worth a look).
Martin Monica Hall wrote:
There is a facsimile of the Phalese book published by Tree Editions - modestly priced at 36 euros.There is no indication in the tablature that the chords should be strummed. It does however seem to me to be self-evident that at least some passages must be strummed. I don't see how else you could conveniently play them. The same is true of the Braye ms. I haven't seen theGiesbert - but it seems to me perfectly reasonable to indicate that the chords should be strummed if the edition is for classical guitarists.The other thing is that many of the chords are actually the same as standardalfabeto chords without the fifth course. The fifth course was added later. There is clearly a continuous tradition. Some of the pieces in one of the Newsidler books do have an instruction "mit streichen" in pieces which have 6-part chords. I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that even the noble lute was sometimes strummed.But because the 4-course guitar was perhaps more of a popular instrument,more likely to be played by amateurs, strumming may have been consideredmore appropriate. There is the famous quotation which I can't actually quote verbatim but says to effect "All the world's a gitterning and the lute is quite laid off etc..".I don't think that treating the text as if it were holy writ is helpful. Just because there are no specific indications in the sources as to how the chords should be played doesn't mean that they must be played in what I would call "lute style". This is an assumption. Quite possible full chords were strummed on the lute too. There is no indication either way.Monica ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stuart Walsh" <s.wa...@ntlworld.com> To: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 10:46 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitarMonica Hall wrote:You mention the fact that the printed sources of 4-course music don'tindicate that the chords should be strummed. But there is no reason whythey shouldn't be. The guitar books are printed using the same font of type as lute books printed by Leroy and Ballard & co and are printed in the same way.Either they didn't have anything suitable in the font of type to indicateright hand technique or they didn't think it was necessary. There are lots of places where repeated chords seem obviously intended to be strummed.Monica, are you saying that the 1570 publication of Phalèse and Bellèrehas no indications of strumming either? Like Martyn, I've never seen thesetablatures and, like Martyn, I have the 1970s Geisbert two volumes oftranscriptions for modern guitar. Geisbert gives indications of strummingin some of the pieces, so presumably he made it all up?It might have been difficult to indicate strums in the way that music was set at that time but even the four-course guitar music in the Braye MS -which has loads of block chords - doesn't have any indications of strumming. Of course, absence of strumming indications doesn't mean that players didn't use strums. Strumming might just have been expected as anatural thing to do, given the nature of the instrument. (But then - apartfrom some precious French stuff from the following century anyway - whywas the 16th century lute not typically strummed too?). It might have beenthe case that strumming was an option but only by those with good taste, or the complete opposite, as something only fit for peasants! StuartOne of the books - can't remember off hand which - also includes piecesfor the 4-course cittern which would have been played with a plectrum andtherefore strummed. It would have been up to the player to decide whether the strokes were up and down etc. I have just got a copy of this manuscript copied in 1649 which belonged to Monsier DuPille. This includes one of the guitar songs from Moulinie's book. Moulinie hasn't indicated that the accompanimentshould be strummed but in the manuscript it is clear that it should be -the note values are on the stave with tails up and down.Haven't had time to go through the manuscript in detail but I think someof the pieces may from the 4-course repertoire but up-graded for 5-course. All are clearly intended to be strummed. Printed sources are constrained by what is practical. They certainly don't give us the whole picture! Monica----- Original Message ----- From: "Stuart Walsh" <s.wa...@ntlworld.com>To: "Eugene C. Braig IV" <brai...@osu.edu> Cc: "'List LUTELIST'" <l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>; "'Vihuelalist'" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 7:03 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitarEugene C. Braig IV wrote:Yes, I agree with all, especially regarding elaborating on brief dance melodies or chord progressions. It's hard to guess what improvisationonguitar might have sounded like in the renaissance or baroque era. It'swhenthere is an abrupt change of style leaning heavily on new-agey-soundingsuspensions, etc. that such improvisations can be distracting. Best, EugeneI hope Massimo won't mind me including an example. Overall, he plays very beautifully and he adds strums, which, of course, are not in the original but which sound really appropriate and musical. And he uses some strange inegale at times too, which maybe what some people did or how he, as a musician, hears the music.(And in general, no doubt, all sorts of improvisation was used all overthe place) What bothers me are these rather fay little vamps which he uses in a number of the dances. Here is an example: many people will know this little Branle de Champaigne. Ex1 is the opening - four bars of the littlevamp figure and then the actual music. At the end of the Branle the vampfigure returns as a sort of interlude into a repeat (Ex2). It's a very attractive little dance and it's very short and the vamp makes it into something bigger. But it seems, to me anyway, really quite out of character. Surely an improvised second run through (or a written out 'plusdiminueé') would surely be better. Or play a set of dances. Or just playit twice. opening (Ex1) http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/ex1.mp3 middle Ex2) http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/ex2.mp3 Stuart-----Original Message-----From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] OnBehalf Of Chris Despopoulos Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 12:23 PM To: Eugene C. Braig IV; List LUTELIST; Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitarHaving just attended classes on the Baroque Guitar at La Semana deMusica Antigua in Gijon, Spain... Eduardo Eguez pointed out that the Sanz manuscript is a book of ensenyanza... that is, you're learning the pieces. Most certainly, any player above the beginner level would have taken these as suggestions, and would have improvised on these themes. That was how I took Eduardo's message on that front, anyway. Yes, there's music that is composed to the fullest extent, but Sanz (at least) seems to have made illustrations more so than compositions, per se. It may be that most of the existing guitar works are intended to be taken with a similar grain of salt? (Still thinking about that...) I have noticed a relatively recent movement in terms of Baroque guitar performance that tends toward improvisation. Xavier Diaz Latorre does this wonderfully, I think.In the same festival I attended a series of classes on disminuacionand ornamentacion. Again, the idea was that melodic lines were meant to include the addition of passing phrases from one note to another,and/or ornamentation -- all at the discretion of the performer. Ina word, improvisation. And again, I notice that players are achieving this today. Interestingly, we had another set of classes that covereda flame war between Monteverdi and Artusi, where Artusi complainedthat Monteverti's dissonances would be fine in the context of improvisation, but a serious composition should not have such things. Then back to the improvisation class where we saw an example of Monteverdi writing aseries of disminuaciones and ornamentaciones in a singer's part --tobe performed exactly as written! Ostensibly, they were to "sound"improvised??? And of course, there's continuo, which is essentially structured improvisation. I think the bottom line is, there were lots of cases whereimprovisation was appropriate, and lots where it wasn't. In otherwords, um... er... Well, you know... cud __________________________________________________________________ From: Eugene C. Braig IV <brai...@osu.edu> To: List LUTELIST <l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Vihuelalist <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Fri, July 30, 2010 11:39:51 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Such improvised indulgences seem to me to find home amongst a greater proportion of 4- and 5-course guitarists (Lonardi, Lislevand, Ferries, etc.) than lutenists or players of modern classical or early 6-string guitars. I wonder why that is. Sometimes it sounds quite nice, but is sometimes a bit distracting. Eugene > -----Original Message----- > From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > Behalf Of Stuart Walsh > Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 11:20 AM > To: Eugene C. Braig IV > Cc: 'List LUTELIST'; 'Vihuelalist' > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar > > Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: > > Craddock's recording is now super-hard to find. I would love to have a > > copy, but can't seem to track one down at a reasonable price. > > > > Also look into: > > > > Lonardi, Massimo. 2006. Comienc,a la Musica para Guitarra. Stradivarius. > > >> Massimo plays very well indeed but for many of the little danceshe adds > a sort of intro/outro (and sometimes interlude) vamp. Listeners who > didn't know the originals might have thought these (modern-sounding, > folksy) vamps were in the original tablatures . I can see that he's> trying to frame them and make them special but I've often thoughtof > actually taking the trouble to edit them out. > > > Stuart > > > > > > Marincola, Federico. 1994. Pieces pour Luth/Pieces pour Guitare. Disques > > Pierre Verany. > > > > Smith, Hopkinson. 1992. Alonso Mudarra: Tres Libros de Musica en Cifras > Para > > Vihuela. Auvidis/Astree. > > > > The former is all 4-course guitar and quite nice to my ears. The latter > two > > features mostly lute or vihuela, but include a fair number of tasty > guitar > > solos and are also quite nice. ...Not to mention Jocelyn's fine recent > > effort: [3]http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/nelsonbartram. Even Anthony Rooley> > indulged in a little 4-course guitar on Renaissance Fantasias,but only > a > > little. > > > > Best, > > Eugene > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[5]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > >> Behalf Of Laura Maschi > >> Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 11:05 PM > >> To: Bruno Correia > >> Cc: List LUTELIST > >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Four c. guitar > >> > >> Also check michael Craddock wonderful recording released around 2008... > >> > >> > >> Enviado desde mi iPod > >> > >> El 29/07/2010, a las 23:40, Bruno Correia <[6]bruno.l...@gmail.com> > >> escribio: > >> > >>> >>> I think John Williams never read anything about the historyof his > >>> own > >>> instrument. Check at 1:38. Couldn't believe he said that, specially > >>> after watching those great videos by Jocelyn Nelson. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> [1][7]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LNU1-s4BE&feature=related > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> > >>> References > >>> > >>> 1. [8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LNU1-s4BE&feature=related > >>> > >>> > >>> To get on or off this list see list information at > >>> [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- References 1. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/nelsonbartram 4. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. mailto:bruno.l...@gmail.com 7. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LNU1-s4BE&feature=related 8. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LNU1-s4BE&feature=related 9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
