Dear Jean-michel,
Put a colon after 'octaves' as '.......strung in octaves: outside
Italy........' - I think you'll see what I meant.... I didn't think
the meaning wasn't obvious but I'm sorry if you were momentarily
misled. As you'll see I do, of course, allow the earlier Italian lute
in octave tuning.
But, interestingly and to extend this thread a little, for the later
16th century Italian repertoire do we really know how the lute was
expected to be strung? I'm not sure that octaves on 4th and 5th as
well as the 6th (and lower) courses were still general by, say the
1570s. Do you? Certainly the 17th century lute doesn't generally seem
to have had octaves on the 4th and 5th (people like Piccinnini, Melli
and Santino Garsi), so when did the change take place? [Martin, have
you done anything on this?]
MH
--- On Tue, 31/8/10, jean-michel Catherinot
<jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: jean-michel Catherinot <jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com>
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos
performed by Lex Eisenhardt
To: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Lute List"
<l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Martin Shepherd" <mar...@luteshop.co.uk>,
"Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010, 15:03
Except le Roy 's information about neapolitan school (with no
octaves), I'm not aware of an italian general habit of stringing
without octaves on the lute!
And most of lutenists today play high Renaissance lute music with
plain octave stringing (6 to 4) as far as I know. On the vihuela, no
octave stringing began with Emilio Pujol, based only on an ambiguous
tuning chart in Pisador. So...
--- En date de : Mar 31.8.10, Martyn Hodgson
<[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> a ecrit :
De: Martyn Hodgson <[2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Objet: [VIHUELA] Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos
performed by Lex Eisenhardt
A: "Vihuelalist" <[3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Lute List"
<[4]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Martin Shepherd"
<[5]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
Date: Mardi 31 aout 2010, 12h34
And, of course, in the heyday of the 5 course guitar, the lute
was
always strung in octaves outside Italy the 'baroque' lute
(generally
in Dm tuning); in Italy in the old tuning but still octaves on
the
basses. But, interestingly and with relevance, we know that some
of
the
French 'Old Ones' removed the lower string from the lowest octave
pair
as being too intrusive (Burwell, c1670 'That eleventh string
being
alone ...... The Lute-masters have taken away that great string
because
the sound of it is too big.....). In short they sacrificied the
lower
rather than the upper octave of the pair - once again evidence
that
we
need to be very careful about assuming that a 'complete' and, to
some
modern thinking, a more logical specification was always what
they
aimed for.
As said before, much of the reason for introducing the added
basses
was
not simply (or just) to 'improve' the bass register but was also
to
free the left hand for work higher up the fingerboard.
Mace(1676)
certainly makes a great deal of this in his essay on 'The LUTE
made
Easie' as making playing 'become Easie' (no need for such
difficult
left hand fingerings) and, of course, the technique became very
widely
used later and indeed was common practice by Weiss and other 18th
century lutenists.
MH
--- On Tue, 31/8/10, Martin Shepherd
<[1][6]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
wrote:
From: Martin Shepherd <[2][7]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex
Eisenhardt
To: "Vihuelalist" <[3][8]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Lute List"
<[4][9]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010, 9:46
Hi All,
Just to give a lutenist's perspective (and copying to the lute
list
as
it might be of interest there):
For much of the 16th century lutes were routinely strung with
octaves
on courses 4-6. Almost equally routinely, the upper octaves are
ignored as far as the counterpoint is concerned - lutenists
making
intabulations (with a few notable exceptions) just intabulated
the
voice parts literally. The degree to which the upper octave can
be
heard depends on many things, but perhaps most of all the skill
of
the
player - mostly, you want the octave to be audible but not too
strong
as it is really there to "colour" the sound, adding some upper
partials
to the sound of the gut basses. The re-entrant tuning of the
guitar
is
another kettle of fish....
Just as an aside, Dowland's remarks on octaves in Varietie of
Lute
Lessons (1610) have been widely misunderstood, even though what
he
writes is perfectly clear. He says that octaves were used more
in
England than elsewhere, so there is some justification (and quite
a
bit
of evidence from the music itself) for using octaves even up to
the
4th
course in the music of Cutting, John Johnson, Holborne, and
anyone
else
active in the 1580s and 90s (except possibly Ferrabosco, since he
probably brought his Italian habits with him!). Oh and of course
Barley's book of 1597 specifies octaves on courses 4-6, and
although
he
borrowed much of his material from Le Roy (1568) he obviously
thought
it was still common practice.
Best wishes,
Martin
Monica Hall wrote:
> Yes - that is certainly the case. However with baroque guitar
music
the octaves are intermittent rather than continuous. The other
point
is that because of the way that the guitar is strung one tends to
hear
the upper notes rather than the lower ones and because the
instrument
has a small compass the upper notes on the lower courses overlap
with
the notes on the upper courses. You get the same effect with
octave
stringing on the third course. It is not that one voice in the
counterpoint is being duplicated. This is rather different from
playing passages in octaves on the piano or harpsichord - where
there
wont be the same overlapping. On the organ it is possible to
play
different parts on different manuals but this raises quite
different
issues from the guitar.
>
> The point I was making about the vihuela is relevant here too
because
one of the arguments put forward in favour of unison stringing is
that
the individual contrapuntal lines will be compromised by the high
octave strings. In my experience not many lutenists use octave
stringing even for the earlier repertoire but when they do the
effect
this has on the music is very noticeable and quite difficult to
adapt
to. And as far as I am aware, they don't put the high octave
string
on the thumb side of a course.
>
> Monica
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From:
"[1][5][10]michael.f...@notesinc.com"
<[2][6][11]michael.f...@notesinc.com>
> To: "'Lex Eisenhardt'" <[3][7][12]eisenha...@planet.nl>;
"'Vihuelalist'"
<[4][8][13]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 11:36 PM
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex
Eisenhardt
>
>
>> Dear List,
>>
>> At this point I feel compelled to say something about
"parallel
octaves." If
>> parallel octaves are continuous, they cease to be "parallel
octaves"
and
>> become "orchestration" (e.g., organ or harpsichord stops). The
parallel
>> octaves that get red marks in a theory or counterpoint class
are
between two
>> adjacent consonances and are usually part of a 3- or 4-voice
texture.
>> Sometimes they are "hidden octaves": the same thing but with
an
intervening
>> note in one of the voices.
>>
>> Sorry for the lecture.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> ________________________
>>
>> Michael Fink
>> [5][9][14]michael.f...@notesinc.com
>> ________________________
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [6][10][15]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
[mailto:[7][11][16]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
>> Of Lex Eisenhardt
>> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 1:15 PM
>> To: Vihuelalist
>> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex
Eisenhardt
>>
>>
>>> Today the
>>> vihuela is usually tuned in unison throughout but this may
not
have
>>> been so in the 16^th century. If the 5^th and 6^th courses
were
octave
>>> strung this might alter our perceptions of the music.
>>
>> But to what extent? Early lutes had octaves, sometimes even on
the
4th
>> course. Certain organ stops have octaves too.
>> The whole problem seems to be how you reconstruct the
polyphony
in
your
>> mind.
>> The high octaves of the five-course guitar tend to be
prominent
indeed
>> (although it depends also on how you touch them, and the
string
tension, and
>>
>> even on how they relate in height to the bourdon, at the
bridge)
but
I
>> happen to think that it's not a matter of measuring decibels
in
the
first
>> place.
>>
>>>
>>> The baroque guitar has nothing in common with the classical
guitar.
>>
>> Some people seem to shiver at the idea...
>>
>>
>>> most of the time it is difficult to hear the bourdon on the
fifth
>>> course because all it is doing is creating parallel octaves
in
which
>>> the upper part is more audible.
>>
>> For some listeners there are parallel octaves, for others the
bass
becomes
>> brighter and stronger, as a result of the blending of the
overtones
of the
>> two strings, like on the lute or the organ (the latter has of
course
no
>> strings).
>>
>>
>>> In the Sarabande the bass line falls a
>>> 7th at the cadence following the double bar - this big
chord I
comes
>>> out of nowhere!
>>
>> I'm afraid that's what big chords do. It is guitar music after
all,
in this
>> funny mixed battuto-pizzicato style.
>>
>>
>>> Paradoxically the bourdon on the fourth often sounds
>>> to me more prominent especially in odd places in the
campanellas.
>>
>> Maybe it's not a paradox, since there are more notes on the
4th
course
>> involved. It seems to be generally accepted that the bourdon
on
the
4th
>> course is needed with Bartolotti, so this happens when you
play
what
the
>> tablature says.
>> In all 5 clips there are only 2 campanela runs, by the way,
they
are
both in
>>
>> the prelude. The section high up the neck in the courante, for
instance,
>> could be misleading, it is just a 'regular' texture.
>>
>>
>>> But neither is there any evidence that Italians thought of
the
guitar
>>> as having seven strings rather than five and that used the
separate
>>> strings of the fourth and fifth courses independently as a
matter
of
>>> course.
>>
>> Again, it is not so much a matter of using the separate
strings
>> independently, but using your ears (and therefore also your
hands)
in a more
>>
>> varied way. Or should we believe that the tablature obliges
you
to
always
>> play the two strings (the octave and the bourdon) in perfect
balance? (This
>> would then of course also apply for the 4th course bourdon)
>>
>>
>>> It is also unfair to suggest that other people play the
music
>>> the way that they do because it is fashionable and that
they
havent
>>> given careful thought to what they are doing.
>>
>> Maybe. All the heavyly syncopated afterbeat strumming (and
percussion)
>> doesn't sound very 17th century to me. Wouldn't it be on
purpose,
as
a
>> 'cross-over'?
>>
>> Lex
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>
[8][12][17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>>
>>
>
>
--
References
1.
[13][18]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=michael.f...@no
tesInc.
com
2.
[14][19]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=michael.f...@no
tesinc.
com
3.
[15][20]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@plan
et.nl
4.
[16][21]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dart
mouth.e
du
5.
[17][22]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=michael.f...@no
tesinc.
com
6.
[18][23]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dar
tmouth.
edu
7.
[19][24]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dar
tmouth.
edu
8. [20][25]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=[26]mar...@luteshop.co.uk
2. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=[27]mar...@luteshop.co.uk
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4. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=[29]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
5. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=[30]michael.f...@notesinc.com
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com
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[41]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e
du
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[42]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=michael.f...@notesinc.
com
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[43]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.
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--
References
1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mar...@luteshop.co.uk
6. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mar...@luteshop.co.uk
7. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mar...@luteshop.co.uk
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11. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=michael.f...@notesinc.com
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18. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=michael.f...@notesinc
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20. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
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23. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth
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29. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
30. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=michael.f...@notesinc.com
31. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=michael.f...@notesinc.com
32. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
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38. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=michael.f...@notesinc.com
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43. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
44. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
45. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
