| I interpreted what they said to mean that everything about the app prior to subscription would continue to work. The only change would be that one no longer could add new content for it to read, and none of the new features would be added.
Arnold Schmidt Sent from Arnold's iPhone S E 3
On Apr 1, 2024, at 2:51 PM, Grant Hardy <grantha...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hey Christopher, no, I absolutely appreciate your opinion, please don't feel like you shouldn't have commented. I also understand that the economics of creating and maintaining a functional, niche app like this are very difficult. However, the only thing I have an issue with is willfully introducing code that will disable people's previous purchases. I don't think that's appropriate because it sets a precedent where any purchase you've made from the App Store could not just get out of date, but actually be revoked. That wouldn't be healthy for the community. I don't have an issue with anything else they're doing, only this one specific behaviour.
To give an over the top example, screen readers have introduced subscription plans for users who want them. Now imagine if your screen reader developer wrote to you one day advising that they were going to be disabling the license you purchased, and you would then have to start from scratch by renting it again. That's essentially what's happened here, because my purchases (VDR, several voices, Voice Dream Scanner) are not going to be available to me anymore.
You’re right, if they just let the existing app die on the vine, and they put out a new app, then it wouldn’t be much of a burden to them. I was assuming they’d still
just have one app that would start including the new functionality for the subscribers but leave the existing functionality for the current users. This would require branches in the code, ongoing maintenance for those with the existing functionality and regression
testing to make sure existing functionality didn’t break.
Again, you’re right. They couldn’t pull the app from the store and erase it from everyone phone, but if they just pivoted away from the app altogether because supporting
it as is isn’t sustainable then what functionality would be impacted and how long would it be before it stopped functioning altogether? My point was that enforcing the guidelines won’t make a business model sustainable and keep a company afloat.
Sounds to me like Winston had a great idea for an app, couldn’t keep putting food on the table the way things were, sold it to another company who’s also trying to make
it work, and is now fumbling it’s way to get to a position where they can support a great app and make some money off of it as well. I just don’t see bad guys here, but rather developers trying to adjust to a changing market.
Sorry, I should have just left this alone. Like I said, I think y’all have a point about these guidelines, and I think you should definitely raise it with the developers
and Apple. ,I know I may keep using the app if this all works out. If not, I’ve already gotten my money’s worth from Voice Dream, and I’ve already started using alternatives.
--
Christopher (AKA CJ) =>÷
Chaltain at Outlook, USA
Hey Christopher, I’m a little bit confused by what you are saying. If Voice Dream Reader’s developer grandfathered in existing users, didn’t provide us with any updates, but also didn’t disable our previously purchased functionality, and
just released a new app with the subscription, what do you mean when you say that wouldn’t be free for them? There wouldn’t be any additional development, testing or technical support needed for the previously purchased app, so I can’t imagine what costs they
would incur. Or do you mean the opportunity cost, as in, the lack of revenue from users who previously bought perpetual licenses and are now being asked to re-purchase, rent, our licenses again? As for pulling the app from everyone if the App Store team told
them they can’t change the terms for previous customers, I’m not really sure how that would benefit them or anybody else, it sounds like a zero-sum solution where everybody loses. I don’t know exactly how that works either if developers wish to erase something
from everyone’s purchase history but it’s extremely uncommon. I have many discontinued apps that I can still redownload. I think one thing this has taught me is the benefits of keeping the app installation files locally on your computer like we used to in
the good ‘ol days. You can use iMazing on Mac to download these, not sure about Windows but possibly an older version of iTunes. I feel like there’s some vulnerability in counting on being able to download the latest versions of apps from the App Store’s purchase
history given this type of situation.
I didn’t listen to Jonathan Mosen’s interview, but if this is really an issue of a sustainable business model
then Apple’s guidelines can’t keep a developer from just pulling the app altogether. I don’t know what their user community looks like, so I don’t know if this is an issue for them or not. It does seem to be though that supporting current customers with current
functionality, as well as future customers with new functionality, isn’t going to be free. There will be development, test and maintenance costs.
I’m not saying anyone shouldn’t contact Apple and pursue this, in fact I think that’s exactly what people should
do. I’ll be interested to see what comes of it.
--
Christopher (AKA CJ) =>÷
Chaltain at Outlook, USA
None of these would happen. Nothing that dramatic would occur. What Apple could do is simply reject their update and tell them to fix the app so functionality isn't taken away from
previous customers. The Apple review team rejects many new apps and app updates on a regular basis and it's not a big deal. Devs just implement the required changes and then they're good to go. Alternatively, if the code is already live with the update released
last week, Apple could pull the app from the store until they fix it, especially since the change was undocumented until you installed the update.
However it's also possible that this will fly under Apple's radar or that they'll choose to not act. Even though this clearly doesn't jive with my reading of the guidelines, subscription
models are all over the place and I think a lot of this type of behaviour flies under the radar. The review team doesn't catch everything.
Of course it's also possible I'm simply reading the guidelines incorrectly.
Another thing to wonder about: Suppose Apple investigates and decides that their guidelines have been violated. What can Apple do about it that won't hurt everybody. They can simply
remove VoiceDream from the app store. They could sue the developers and end up in court which would probably take years to resolve. Apple could issue some update to the IOS which would prevent VoiceDream from operating while the issue is resolved.Or, the developers
could just say, well, to heck with it, we will simply stop supporting the thing and go out of business because it isn't worth going to court over. If any of these solutions are acurate, we all would end up worse off than if Apple just let it go.
Sent from Arnold's iPhone S E 3
As per your second point, there could still be lots of reasons to get a subscription, but they should revolve around new features. The developers could release new features on top
of the existing app, and if they were compelling enough then users would definitely want to subscribe to get access to them.
However, as of my understanding of this app, subscriptions shouldn't charge for features already bought with different terms. In my case, those features include browsing BookShare,
adding and reading content, various voices, and scanning documents.
As was pointed out in the podcast posted here a few days ago from Jonathan, they could also release a completely new app, charge for it monthly, not update the previous app anymore,
and we could then use the previous app on the terms we agreed upon. The issue is releasing an update that disables features.
Hi Cara,
I really appreciate your insight on this and you said it far better than I did.
Ultimately, with all of the controversy surrounding the App Store given developments in the EU etc., one thing that everyone usually acknowledges is that the App Store operates
within certain guidelines, and those have huge benefits to both users and developers. Some are more asateric, like "please don't modify the status bar or hide system messages etc.". Some are more protective, like the one I quoted (e.g. something like "please
don't take away what users previously bought and try to charge for it again"). What I'm throwing out there is that if the App Store is going to be the exclusive place where I can get apps, I'd like developers to follow the guidelines so I can get the functionality
and protections the App Store is designed to offer. And I would like a mechanism to report when I believe developers aren’t following what they agreed upon.
It's just baffling to me that previous purchases are being intentionally disabled and I'm a little taken aback that the arguments on either side haven't addressed this. If you know
of any way to report this to Apple and get a response, I'd certainly love to hear it.
I know that this app is used in many schools and universities where money is tight, and while new users have had subscriptions for a few years, it's possible that a high school
or university student is still in the system with a perpetual license. What this means is that their app might be disabled around exam time in the school year, possibly without much notice. I can personally attest that the banner was not noticeable to me as
a VO user and I only learned about it based on this list. I'm concerned this could impact the very demographics who are best served by this app. But more to the point, I'm questioning whether we truly are getting the protections we thought we were getting
by buying from the App Store. When I switched to Apple Music I kept all the songs I'd bought outright, and even if I canceled it I would still keep those songs. This would be like having all my previous purchases taken away as of a certain date.
Hi Richard and All,
Let me state right out front that I am absolutely not sharing any opinions here on this issue. I’m not really a user of the app so have no horse in this race. :)
Having said that though, this doesn’t really fit with what Grant is saying. One important aspect of this app’s functionality is to allow folks to add to their library. So in this
case, yes, previously purchased functionality is being removed.
Also, even though the dev guidelines are guidelines, and thus not legally-binding, I would absolutely consider contacting Apple, not to complain, but to simply ask for clarification
on this situation.
As a developer on the App Store, myself, I can’t just do whatever I want and still be on the store. That is what the guidelines are for.
If I released an app, and offered a subscription along with a more expensive lifetime purchase option, should I then be allowed to turn around a couple of months later and tell
all owners of the app that they all need to move to the subscription? When someone makes a purchase, that can be seen as a form of contract. This is obviously subject to specifics, of course, and please, by all means, feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.
I know that the Voice Dream situation has happened over a longer period than my example above, but in my example, just say that I decided after three months or so to begin charging
everyone a subscription, regardless of whether they had already purchased the app. Would this be appropriate? What about if I did this after a month? What about six months? -or a year? What time frame is appropriate? Does time frame matter?
In any case, there is a guideline (which Grant quoted) which does seem to address this. So I would be curious here to see what Apple has to say on this.
Regardless, I hope there can be a good and appropriate outcome to this situation which honors the money that folks have spent and also allows the Voice Dream team to continue their
excellent work!
Cheers and Happy Easter to those who celebrate! :)
If you listen to Jonathan's podcast you will learn that after May 1st, you will still be able to access everything in your library. Apparentbby, you will not be able to add to the
library. I think that fits your analogy with purchasing a game.
“Grandma always told us, “Be careful when you pray for patience. God stores it on the other side of Hell and you will have to go through Hell to get it.”
I absolutely appreciate that the economics of maintaining an app are tricky.
However, Apple Developer guideline 3.1.2 clearly states:
If you are changing your existing app to a subscription-based business model, you should not take away the primary functionality existing users have already paid for. For example,
let customers who have already purchased a “full game unlock” continue to access the full game after you introduce a subscription model for new customers.
This is why, for example, when the Weather Gods app converted to a subscription, existing users (those who already paid for the app) kept the functionality they previously paid
for.
In this case, it seems like all our purchases (Voice Dream Reader, any purchased voices, Voice Dream Scanner, etc.) are simply going to be disabled. I do have some concerns with
that, because it seems like the quoted Apple Developer review guideline states that this shouldn't occur.
I don't have any concerns about charging a subscription for new users, or charging existing users for updates. But I haven't ever heard of an app that is disabling previously purchased
functionality from working at all. Regardless of the PR that this generates, I'm a little unclear how this is in accordance with the Developer Guidelines as quoted above.
If it is, I am curious then if it would be reasonable to expect every app purchase we've made on iOS to be disabled then at some point. I'm not talking about apps not being developed
anymore and possibly not working anymore given an update to iOS etc.. I am talking about code that specifically tells the app not to recognize your previously purchased license.
just some food for thought. Again, I am absolutely sympathetic to the new owners of Voice Dream Reader, but I don't think disabling previous purchases is the appropriate solution.
At the moment, I'm working on transitioning my audio content to Downcast. Haven't decided what to do about my text content yet.
I took Dennis’s advice and made a donation to listen to Jonathan interviewing Kishin Manglani from the Applause Group.
It is very much worth listening to. It is fairly long, but it is very clear that they care very much about their customers and
are doing their best to provide a quality product and adding new features.
The one thing I noticed if you go into the Voice Dream Reader app and double tap on settings, then on subscription, it brings up
the post titled Pricing Changes for One-Time Purchasers.
As you read through that, when you get to the line that says, try the 14 day trial or something like that, it doesn’t say it is
a link or button, but if you double tap on that, it takes you to the app store where you can choose to subscribe and get 2 weeks free if you were a one-time purchaser. I don’t know what you get if you are a new subscriber.
But signing up this way keeps it fairly simple and familiar since it is within the app store.
The difference from subscribing through the link through a service that seems to be called Stripe or something; whatever Jonathan
said, the Applause Group gets a higher cut of the payment than if you go through the app store.
I don’t know if people realize, that whatever price you pay for an app through the app store, Apple gets a pretty big cut. I think
20 or 30 percent and the developer gets the rest.
IN any case, I’ve signed up through the app store.
They will be offering a monthly option in the not too distant future.
HTH,
Richard, USA
"It's no great honor to be blind, but it's more than a nuisance and less than a disaster. Either you're going to fight like hell
when your sight fails or you're going to stand on the sidelines for the rest of your life." -- Dr. Margaret Rockwell Phanstiehl Founder of Audio Description (1932-2009)
My web site:
https://www.turner42.com
You can subscribe to livingly blindfully plus for just 60 American cents and get access today or wait 3 days. I
strongly encourage you to listen to it. I do think the Voicedream team does care and value our feedback.
Hello everybody I believe that we just have to except what do people with voice dream reader want to do. That developers are totally free to increase prices or make free apps, paid apps
or whatever they feel they want to do need to do or have to do to make money. Just remember that Free doesn’t make any money for anybody and, he doesn’t buy anyone’s lunch. I think we’d all be better served if we could look for something that does the same
things as voice dream reader and it’s either Free or at least at low cost. It just sounds like the people that work with voice dream reader are going to do whatever they’re going to do and they’re not willing to, or able to change their minds. Just trying
to find an alternative would be a lot more productive for everybody than just talking about not being able to use voice dream reader. I’m just saying all this whatever it’s worth. For all I know it may not be worth anything not even a plug penny or a plug
nickel.
I highly doubt it violates any Apple rules, if a developer decides to increase the price for their app or to charge something for a previously free
app or to switch to a subscription model then that is entirely their decision.
If you search for Voice Dream Reader on the App Store, open the page for the app, and scroll down, there is an option to "report a problem". Please consider reporting what the developer
is doing to Apple. I am not sure if it violates any developer guidelines, but it sure seems like it would: selling lifetime licenses with agreed upon terms and then disabling them. The nature of how the update was released also didn't give users any warning
or opt-out, as the new deadline wasn't mentioned in the release notes. I think Apple uses these for internal purposes, and if enough people file reports then they may act upon it.
I would also recommend leaving a review of the app and mentioning the upcoming disabling of previously purchased licenses, and how the update was handled.
I absolutely do not have a problem with developers going the subscription route, charging for new features and updates, or raising prices. It's a tough world out there. But I do
have serious concerns about pushing out an update that disables previously purchased licenses from continuing to work at all and not mentioning that this would happen in the release notes. I would imagine this will impact many schools and other educational
institutions as well who will rely on having access to this app at least for the remainder of the school year.
Let's hope we can share with the developer and Apple some constructive feedback.
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