I totally agree with you here David. The same night I got my very first iPhone, I bought Sendero Lookaround because it was Sendero. I assumed the Lookaround app would be the cream of the crop, but in fact it was very very limited in terms of functionality and mainstream apps like AroundMe are exponentially more useful. Even now, SeeingEye GPS is pretty rudimentary. I find the descriptions of upcoming intersections to be useful, but even those descriptions aren't all that they could be, and aside from that BlindSquare does a much better job for a fraction of the price. The Sendero GPS app for the BrailleNote set the bar pretty high, and Sendero's other apps are not yet there in terms of functionality. I think what this all comes down to is that there is not a "perfect" GPS solution yet for iOS that takes into account all of our needs, but if we handpick a few apps that we find useful in our areas, we can get pretty close.
Grant -----Original Message----- From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of David Chittenden Sent: October 28, 2013 2:27 PM To: viphone@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: BlindSquare, A Disappointment I apologise for my poor and misleading wording. I purchased Sendero LookAround when it first came out, mainly to support the development of accessible GPS solutions. When I was in the US visiting family, I tried LookAround and found its POI database to be very limited. I ended up using Around Me, a free POI app to locate nearby places. Given that LookAround was the most expensive of that type of GPS app, I became disillusioned with the company. Like I stated in another message, if I am paying a significant premium for a blindness targeted app, I expect at least equivalent functionality if it is the only accessible app of its type, and significantly improved functionality if the general market apps are at least somewhat accessible. David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA Email: dchitten...@gmail.com Mobile: +64 21 2288 288 Sent from my iPhone > On 29 Oct 2013, at 6:53, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote: > > I thought the same thing Grant did, and that was that you were making philosophical or generic statements. When I read "Whenever possible, I do not purchase blindness specific apps." I didn't assume you were just talking about GPS apps. > > I agree if a blindness specific app doesn't meet your needs or you think it's too expensive then you shouldn't buy it. However, I don't think a blind person should have to change the way they navigate or put up with other inconveniences just to use a main stream app if there is a another app, maybe written with the blind in mind, that better meets their needs. > > >> On 10/28/2013 05:43 AM, David Chittenden wrote: >> Considering that this discussion has been specifically about GPS >> apps, I am specifically referring to GPS apps. So, contrary to your >> statement, I am, in no way, speaking philosophically here. >> >> The only blindness focussed app I have purchased for navigation is >> Ariadne. The only reason I purchased it was because the free app I >> previously used to acquire street addresses that I was passing ceased >> working after an iOS upgrade. >> >> People speak about how it is not possible to effectively navigate >> using only street addresses. Those people are incorrect. All one >> needs to do is change the way one navigates. Before Apple Maps >> upgraded, I walked up side streets occasionally to learn which street >> it is. However, I mainly learned to navigate using street addresses >> because that was what was primarily available, and it works quite well. >> >> You speak of the necessity of knowing the exact layout of each and >> every intersection. I travel independently through cities in multiple >> countries without such information. Traffic circles are quite common >> in many countries. When the navigation app says take the second exit >> off the traffic circle, this usually means, continue straight on the street. >> When the app says take the first or third exit, this is easily >> determined by knowing which direction the vehicles travel in the >> traffic circle. In the US, it is counter clockwise. In most island >> nations, it is clockwise. In either case, it is easily figured out by >> observing the side of the street the vehicles drive on. >> >> Oh, if one wishes to get a better feel for how roads are laid out and >> intersect, I prefer Apple Maps traceable street view. It took >> practice to learn to use it, but is valuable when in an unfamiliar area. >> >> As for POI, many apps give many more locations than the blindness >> focussed apps, especially when one is outside the US. I have been >> tempted to acquire BlindSquare, but all the POI data it provides is >> readily accessible from free and very low cost apps. >> >> As for announcing upcoming intersections, Apple Maps now does a >> decent job. The only problem I experience with Apple Maps is it tends >> to announce the cross street both before the street and after the street. >> >> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA >> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com <mailto:dchitten...@gmail.com> >> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288 >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On 28 Oct 2013, at 20:55, Grant Hardy <grantha...@outlook.com >> <mailto:grantha...@outlook.com>> wrote: >> >>> While I am not disagreeing with you from a philosophical >>> perspective, this doesn't really apply to navigation apps. Comparing >>> blindness specific and mainstream GPS apps can be like comparing >>> apples and oranges, as each are used for a completely different >>> purpose. Examples include announcements for crossed streets, >>> descriptions of intersections, and address ranges, which would >>> simply not be useful in mainstream apps. Far from just using an >>> interface that is not optimal, you would be using an app that offers >>> completely different functionality. Of course, there are exceptions, >>> for example the Hop Stop transit app is mainstream but can provide >>> transit directions in a reasonably easy to follow textual manner. >>> But for demanding GPS tasks, blindness specific apps - at least for >>> now - offer a more complete experience. Of course, to tell the truth >>> no GPS app for iOS comes close to the experience you could get on a >>> notetaker like the BrailleNote, but I suspect this will change sooner rather than later. >>> >>> Grant >>> >>> On Oct 27, 2013, at 6:56 PM, "David Chittenden" >>> <dchitten...@gmail.com <mailto:dchitten...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> >>>> Whenever possible, I do not purchase blindness specific apps. >>>> Because the blindness market is so tiny, the developers need to >>>> charge significantly more money just to break even; not to mention >>>> earning a profit. Apps for the sighted have pretty visual >>>> interfaces. As a blind user, it is our job to adjust to those >>>> interfaces, or pay the premium for blindness targeted apps. >>>> >>>> For almost every blindness targeted app, I have multiple general >>>> market apps which do the same thing plus more. However, the >>>> interfaces are usually more complicated for a blind person. This is >>>> almost never a problem for me, but can be a problem for some. >>>> >>>> Finally, as with blindness targeted products, many features are >>>> not, and will not be, available in the blindness targeted app. As >>>> always, this is specifically because of the size of the available >>>> market and economies of scale. >>>> >>>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA >>>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com <mailto:dchitten...@gmail.com> >>>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288 >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On 28 Oct 2013, at 12:15, "Joe" <jsoro...@gmail.com >>>> <mailto:jsoro...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Alex, >>>>> >>>>> I don't want my personal opinion to taint your interest in >>>>> purchasing the app. I do feel like the skunk at the picnic for >>>>> being the only person who has found the app disappointing, but >>>>> after another round of putting the app through its paces, I don't >>>>> get the wow factor. WhereTo lets you choose from a wider selection >>>>> of business categories and gives you the same distance monitoring >>>>> that BlindSquare provides. Ariadne performs the same function you >>>>> mention regarding the bus travel example. I'm not saying the app >>>>> can't be great for some people, but for me the excitement just >>>>> isn't there for the money you pay compared to other orientation >>>>> apps. I knew not to expect turn-by-turn directions. I knew it was >>>>> not a fully functional navigation app like the Seeing Eye app, but >>>>> I was expecting better accuracy, better stability and, frankly, >>>>> better coverage than what BlindSquare is providing. The app is not >>>>> providing nearly the amount of information it ought to be >>>>> providing for an area I am very familiar with. Anyway, I'll stop >>>>> slamming the thing. I know people are loyal to it, but at $24 I >>>>> thought it worth sharing my candid thoughts on the thing. Besides, >>>>> if Apple refuses my refund request, I'll have no choice but to >>>>> start liking the blasted thing.--Joe >>>>> >>>>> *From:*viphone@googlegroups.com <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> >>>>> [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Alex Hall >>>>> *Sent:* Sunday, October 27, 2013 12:48 PM >>>>> *To:* viphone@googlegroups.com <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> >>>>> *Subject:* Re: BlindSquare, A Disappointment >>>>> >>>>> First, I do not have this app, but I have done a lot of research >>>>> into it and am thinking of buying it at some point. >>>>> >>>>> That said, it all depends on what you want from a navigation app. >>>>> Blindsquare can't do turn-by-turn directions, so that's where >>>>> other mapping apps come in and it is why Blindsquare can run in >>>>> the background. What you can do, though, is monitor a POI, with >>>>> the app telling you where it is in relation to you as you move. >>>>> This way, if you know the general layout of your area but not >>>>> where a specific point is, you can find it easily enough. You can >>>>> also set up triggers to have the app alert you when you pass >>>>> within a distance you pick of a point you pick. For example, if >>>>> you need to have the bus stop at First and Main, just set a 200 >>>>> meter trigger for that spot. You can then use the app to see your >>>>> current street, and when you are on Main or First and the app >>>>> alerts you that you are within your notification distance, you can >>>>> have the bus stop or remind the driver where you need to get off. >>>>> >>>>> On Oct 27, 2013, at 11:41 AM, Richard Turner >>>>> <richard.turne...@gmail.com <mailto:richard.turne...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Also, to add to Sieghard's comments, usingBlind Squaretogether >>>>> with Google Maps gives the best combination for knowing what is >>>>> around you, what street is coming up and turn-by-turn directions >>>>> for one third of what you would pay for one year of the Seeing eye app. >>>>> >>>>> Blind Square has been updated numerous times since it came out and >>>>> the next release will likely simplify the main screen and may get >>>>> closer to what you were expecting in the first place. >>>>> >>>>> Very few app developers have been as responsive to user feedback. >>>>> I would strongly recommend that you contact the developer directly >>>>> with your concerns and I think you may find, with some patients, >>>>> that you will become much more fond of using it. >>>>> >>>>> If not, then by all means, go for that refund. >>>>> >>>>> Good luck with either choice, >>>>> >>>>> Richard >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> ------ >>>>> >>>>> *From:*viphone@googlegroups.com >>>>> <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com>[mailto: >>>>> <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com>viphone@googlegroups.com >>>>> <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com>]*On Behalf Of*Joe *Sent:*Sunday, >>>>> October 27, 2013 7:50 AM *To:*viphone@googlegroups.com >>>>> <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> >>>>> *Subject:*RE: BlindSquare, A Disappointment >>>>> >>>>> Hi Sieghard, >>>>> >>>>> The BlindSquare app is very accessible. I don't want to give >>>>> anyone the impression that it is not, and as far as I know, Apple >>>>> gives other reasons for why you can request a refund. It's a long >>>>> shot, hence my pointing out my, hope, for a refund. In that >>>>> regard, Android gets a small nod from me for allowing a try before >>>>> you buy scenario, but that's beside the point and not an attempt >>>>> to stir up a debate. >>>>> >>>>> I listened to a few podcasts about the app. That's ultimately what >>>>> motivated me to take the plunge, but I may not have heard the one >>>>> you're specifically referring to. If you can think of the episode >>>>> title or date, I'd be much appreciative. At $24, I'd be glad to >>>>> find ways to like it, though I did spend time reading through all >>>>> the documentation. >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, just my two dollar's worth. I'm open to being convinced >>>>> otherwise, but so far the alternatives are winning out. >>>>> >>>>> Joe >>>>> >>>>> *From:*viphone@googlegroups.com >>>>> <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com>[mailto: >>>>> <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com>viphone@googlegroups.com >>>>> <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com>]*On Behalf Of*Sieghard Weitzel >>>>> *Sent:*Sunday, October 27, 2013 10:36 AM >>>>> *To:*viphone@googlegroups.com <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> >>>>> *Subject:*RE: BlindSquare, A Disappointment >>>>> >>>>> Hi Joe, >>>>> >>>>> First of all, I doubt you will be able to get a refund. Apple has >>>>> been giving refunds for inaccessible apps, but you can definitely >>>>> not argue that Blindsquare is inaccessible since it was made for >>>>> blind users. >>>>> >>>>> I think Blindsquare is awesome when it comes to finding out what's >>>>> around you. First of all it is by far the best of these apps (I am >>>>> not including the Seeing-Eye app when I say "these apps") when it >>>>> comes to announcing upcoming intersections without having to >>>>> interact with the device. I know Ariadne has a Monitoring function >>>>> which is supposed to do this, but I somehow never found it was all >>>>> that reliable. I admit, however, that after I bought Blindsquare I >>>>> deleted Ariadne from my phone and I haven't used it probably in at >>>>> least a year. >>>>> >>>>> I also like the fact that it's very easy to put in my own points >>>>> of interest in Blindsquare. Later I can, for example, sit in my >>>>> house and I can check out where these points are in relationship >>>>> to my house, e.g. "Start of Trail, 550 metres at 11 o'clock". You >>>>> can, of course, do the same with other points of interest, e.g. >>>>> stores, restaurants etc. >>>>> >>>>> From what you said I assume you haven't listened to any Podcasts >>>>> about Blindsquare because then maybe you might have had a better >>>>> idea about what to expect. But I think it's a good idea to go >>>>> towww.applevis.com <http://www.applevis.com/>, search for >>>>> Blindsquare and listen to especially the one Podcast, can't >>>>> remember the name of the person who does it. Maybe you will find >>>>> some information or hear about uses you hadn't thought of before. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> Sieghard >>>>> >>>>> *From:*viphone@googlegroups.com >>>>> <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com>[mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] >>>>> *On Behalf Of*Joe *Sent:*Sunday, October 27, 2013 7:25 AM >>>>> *To:*viphone@googlegroups.com <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> >>>>> *Subject:*BlindSquare, A Disappointment >>>>> >>>>> I purchased the BlindSquare app on account of I did not want to >>>>> spend a lot more for the Seeing Eye GPS app. To be fair, I'm not >>>>> entirely sure what I was expecting, except I was hoping for a >>>>> little more familiarity with my environment. As it stands, the >>>>> only real advantage is that BlindSquare can tell me, maybe what >>>>> intersection is in front of me, and that with some turning this >>>>> way and that to make sure the app is not capturing intersections >>>>> further away than what you're looking for. Actually, it seems a >>>>> little illogical that you would need to tap into two screens to >>>>> turn on a mode that ought to be readily accessible from the main >>>>> screen. By all means buy it if you're on the fence, but my >>>>> personal recommendation is that it's more than a little overblown. >>>>> If you use Ariadne GPS with a combination of WhereTo or Around Me, >>>>> and pair these up with Google MAPS or Apple's own Maps app, you'll >>>>> be more than good to go without spending more than twenty bucks. I >>>>> would venture to suggest that even Sendero's Look Around app could >>>>> help. Me, I'm hoping I'll be able to get a refund. Thumbs >>>>> down.--Joe >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>> "VIPhone" Google Group. >>>>> >>>>> Post a new message to VIPhone by emailingviph...@googlegroups.com >>>>> <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com>. >>>>> >>>>> Search and view the VIPhone archives by >>>>> visitinghttp://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/. >>>>> >>>>> Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by >>>>> emailingviphone+ow...@googlegroups.com >>>>> <mailto:viphone+ow...@googlegroups.com>. >>>>> >>>>> Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by >>>>> emailingviphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>>>> <mailto:viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. >>>>> >>>>> More VIPhone group options can be found by >>>>> visitinghttp://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. >>>>> --- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "VIPhone" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>> send an email 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