We are not talking about a practical device yet ;-) but I imagine you wouldn't draw the working fluid (not necessarily water) directly from the hot reservoir, you would use a heat exchanger rather, and you would be allowed to draw a thermal power equal to the difference between what the heat pump gives and what the Sterling takes (350W "only" in the example below, but of course it could be scaled up if it works).
Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 3:29 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) >I mean besides keeping the same water warm. > e.g. what happens when you begin to use the hot water > for washing? > > Harry > > > Michel Jullian wrote: > >> When you begin to use the heat from the hot reservoir (launch the Sterling) >> it >> would tend to cool down from the thermal watts you draw from it, but since >> simultaneously you pour more thermal watts into it than you draw from it it >> heats up instead, with the extra heat coming from ambient air. >> >> Jones may be right 40% may be overestimated for the Sterling's efficiency, >> let's use his figure 15% instead, but Ron may also be right that I grossly >> underestimated the heat pump COP. If indeed heat pumps can easily run at >> COP=9, the overall COP would be: >> >> 0.15*9=1.35 which would be even more overunity. >> >> Sterling draws 1000W heat from hot reservoir (not necessarily water BTW) and >> outputs 150W mechanical. >> Heat pump draws 150W*9=1350W from ambient air and outputs them to the hot >> tank. >> Net power into the hot tank: 350W >> >> Anything wrong with this Jones? ;-) (someone "read" by Jones please answer >> this post so he gets it, thanks) >> >> Michel >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Harry Veeder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com> >> Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 5:36 PM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) >> >> >>> What happens when you begin to use the hot water? >>> >>> Harry >>> >>> Stiffler Scientific wrote: >> ... >>>> Enough of that, I hope some one will comment on your idea as I have seen >>>> Heat Pumps easily fun at COP=9 and if I remember my reading can go to >>>> COP=12 >>>> (theory). If that is the case then maybe you have just not accounted for >>>> all >>>> of the loss that will take place. Indeed for Texas (most of it) a m2 of >>>> blackened copper collector can get you some real hot water. >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Michel Jullian [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 8:15 PM >>>> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >>>> Subject: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) >>>> >>>> >>>> OK, if the MIBs didn't intercept my posts which they probably didn't (no >>>> one >>>> has knocked at my door yet), it must be that my scheme was simply not clear >>>> enough to provoke feedback. I'll try and make it clearer through a >>>> practical >>>> embodiment: >>>> >>>> Say we have an insulated hot water reservoir, pre-heated by a joule heater >>>> (used only to start the process), as the hot source, and ambient air as the >>>> cold source. An average efficiency Sterling engine (efficiency=40% >>>> conservatively, say 1000W heat in, 400W mechanical out) runs on those hot >>>> and cold sources (2LoT not broken), and through an appropriate >>>> quasi-lossless gearbox replaces the electric motor powering the compressor >>>> of an average performance house heating type heat pump (COP=3 >>>> conservatively), which therefore pumps 400W*3=1200W of heat from the >>>> ambient >>>> air to the hot water reservoir. >>>> >>>> 1000W out, 1200W in, surely there can be no doubt that after the initial >>>> joule heater kick this apparatus will run standalone, drawing its energy >>>> from the ambient air (cooling it so ventilation will be needed, by say a >>>> 10W >>>> fan), and providing nearly 200W continuous excess heat to the hot water >>>> reservoir? >>>> >>>> Does it make more sense now? ;-) >>>> -- >>>> Michel >>> >> >
