I agree with Bernard's Thought experiment but Nick seems to be hung up on just the Casimir force being exploitable - Nick is overlooking the importance of the gas atoms themselves. Garret Moddel published a paper ,Assessment of proposed electromagnetic quantum vacuum energy extraction methods, http://ecee.colorado.edu/ 7Emoddel/QEL/Papers/Moddel_VacExtracV1.pdf<http://ecee.colorado.edu/%207Emoddel/QEL/Papers/Moddel_VacExtracV1.pdf> Which casts doubt on 2 of the 3 classes of proposed methods to extract energy but finds the migration of monatomic gas inside a Permanent Casimir field, the 3rd class, a workable solution. I view these cavities as a tapestry of different energy densities confined together at the nano scale. You have Gas atoms inside these cavities constantly driven into random motion by HUP - these atoms translate to different quiescent energy densities established by the local Casimir geometry. The heat anomalies of Arata, Mills and other researchers indicate this is already enough to produce an effect even without the circulation proposed by Haisch and Moddel. The circulation was first proposed by William Lyne for an Atomic Furnace and probably would have helped if it had been adopted by Moller and Naudin in the MAHG device - Note H-M are proposing Casimir Lamb Pinch while Lyne and Moller an oscillation between bond states of gas atoms with change in energy density which are wholly different scales but both exploit the change in Casimir geometry relative to the random motion of gas atoms. I think that even if the Casimir Lamb Pinch fails to achieve the efficiency to exploit the process their prototype is still better conceived to exploit the method suggested by Lyne and Moller - The gas is circulated between Casimir and Non Casimir cells forcing a maximum translation/space, spreads out the reaction to avoid melt down and the need to regenerate like the Rayney Nickel of Rowan Confirmation fame - It also allows for better reactant controls to mix with inert gas, vary circulation speed and greater surface area to couple the heat awa! y.
> On Mar 3, 2010, at 4:15 PM, JACK SARFATTI wrote: > > So, Nick where specifically do you disagree with Bernie's remark > > below? What sentences he wrote do you think are wrong? Best way to > > settle this is with the math. I am not sure if Nick's spin example > > is a good analogy with what Haisch & Moddel propose. I think > > Bernie's point is that the work needed to overcome the ZPF energy > > barrier in the two different vacuum phases inside and outside the > > cavity is for the center of mass of the atom. In contrast the > > energy gain they are talking about is in the internal electron > > orbital shift and that the two degrees of freedom are essentially > > decoupled. In order for their scheme to work however, you and David > > make a valid point that the alleged internal orbital zpf energy > > shift gain must be larger than the work done on the CM degree of > > freedom it getting the atoms back out of the cavity in their > > circulating "heat exchange! r" sort of design. Off hand, I see no > > fundamental reason for assuming that the CM work and the orbital > > electron shift must add to zero always. But I have not thought very > > deeply about this. > > > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > >> From: nick herbert <qua...@...> > >> Date: March 3, 2010 12:24:05 PM PST > >> To: JACK SARFATTI <sarfa...@...> > >> Cc: Sarfatti_Physics_Seminars > >> <sarfatti_physics_semin...@yahoogroups.com>, > >> "sarfattisciencesemin...@yahoogroups. com" > >> <sarfattisciencesemin...@yahoogroups.com> > >> Subject: [Starfleet Command] Re: Basic Flaw in Haisch-Moddell > >> Patent ZPF Vacuum Energy Generator? > >> Reply-To: sarfattisciencesemin...@yahoogroups.com > >> > >> > >> David S is spot on. A nice concise refutation of the Haisch- > >> Moddell ZPF Proposal. > >> > >> > >> One can build a simpler version of HM that has the same flaw. > >> > >> Send a properly spin oriented beam of excited atoms into a uniform > >> magnetic field such that the Zeeman splitting > >> puts the atoms in a slightly lower energy state. Mechanism is the > >> same. So is the flaw. Any energy you get from ! > >> increased photon energy due to Zeeman splitting you will lose by > >> the work done extracting the atoms from the magnetic field. > >> > >> Nick Herbert > >> > >> > >> On Mar 2, 2010, at 11:09 AM, JACK SARFATTI wrote: > >> > >>> Force ~ negative spatial gradient of the potential energy > >>> > >>> On Mar 2, 2010, at 10:52 AM, David S wrote: > >>> > >>>> Here is the fallacy with the Haisch patent, I believe : Since > >>>> the atoms of the gas are in a lower energy state within the > >>>> Casimir cavity, they are, in effect, in an energy well. Hence, > >>>> they will experience a net force causing them to remain in the > >>>> cavity. The energy required to remove them from the cavity will > >>>> be exactly balanced by the net gain from the ambient ZPF. Of > >>>> course , additional frictional losses will lead to a net > >>>> negative gain in energy rendering the invention useless a! s a > >>>> free energy source. > >>>> > >>>> < /div> > > > > > > On Mar 2, 2010, at 12:16 PM, Bernard Haisch wrote: > > > >> A thought experiment clarifying the Haisch-Moddel patent > >> (7,379,286) concept > >> > >> Imagine a monatomic hydrogen gas exposed to Lyman-alpha radiation > >> at 121.5 nm which excites the electron into the n=2 level. Now let > >> some of the gas enter a pipe which blocks the radiation. The > >> hydrogen electron will drop back to the ! ground state, n=1. We > >> can certainly capture the emitted radiation in the pipe. On > >> exiting the pipe the hydrogen is again exposed to Lyman-alpha > >> radiation and the electron is excited into the n=2 level again. > >> > >> The process is easily done but not useful because we are simply > >> capturing some of the energy we put there in creating the Lyman- > >> alpha radiation. However this clearly shows that there is no > >> correlation between the electron energy levels and any kind of > >> potential energy relevant to motion into and out of the pipe. The > >> excitation and de-excitation do not produce any forces pulling the > >> hydrogen into or out of the pipe. They are independent processes. > >> > >> Substitute zero-point radiation for Lyman-alpha and a Casimir > >> cavity for the pipe and assume that because of the Casimir > >> suppression of zero-point radiation there is a temporary reduction > >> in the ground state of the atomic electron (as shown by Puthoff > >> and by Cole) while in the cavity and you have the proposed pate! > >> nt. (Note that this does not produced any so-called stable > >> hydrinos.)& nbsp; > >> > >> Bernard Haisch > >> -- > >> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> > > >> Dr. Bernard Haisch > >> 519 Cringle Drive > >> Redwood Shores, CA 94065 > >> ------------------- > >> phone: 650-593-8581, fax: 650-595-4466 > >> email: <as...@...> > >> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> > > > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _ > > > > >
