Thanks for all of the ideas Chuck. I will be out of town for a few days, but will give this method a try when I get back. I just got to thinking if I clean the nickels using a torch, it might seal up the tiny cracks in the metal through melting. I can try it both ways. I have set up a styrofoam minnow bucket in which I will submerge a sealed cell for the electrolysis. I can then measure the temperature change in the surrounding water and get a more precise measure of energy output.
I also plan to drill more holes through the nickels, and add additional thoriated tungsten rods through these holes. I'm also set up to be able to take voltage and current measurements in addition to temperature. I'm also working on setting up a control system with an Android smartphone to provide pulsed DC power. If I get some good results with manual measurements, I hope to be able to use the same setup for automated data logging. Take care, Jack On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 5:17 PM, Chuck Sites <cbsit...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Jack, > > It's funny you said if this is resistive heating, then it highly > efficient. I had a similar thoughts back in the day. > > Let me share some thoughts on the electrolysis of cupronickel in sodium > carbonate. > > Sodium carbonate does make a for a good electrolyte in Hydrogen loading > experiments where the goal is to embed as much hydrogen as possible in the > cathode. It is gentle to the anode and does not attack metal, but allows > for good conductivity through the cell. If your goal is to understand > hydrogen embedded into the cupronickel via electrolysis, I think Sodium > Carbonate would be an excellent choice for the electrolyte. Chemically > Sodium Carbonate (washing soda) Na2[(CO)3] is similar in structure to > Sodium Borate (borax) Na2[B4O5(OH)4]ยท8H2O and both are ionic compounds. > > Experiments like Rossi's and Calianti's use nano scale cupronickel powders > in a hydrogen gas loading experiment. This implies, that nano scale > features can bind and hold hydrogen in geometric arrangements that are not > typically found in nature. So initially we want something that will etch > the surface of the Cupronickel an make it nano porous. Two possible > methods can be used here, electro-etching or chemical etching. Chemical > etching would be the simplest method for creating the nano scale pore > features. If the etching can get the surface from shiny to mat, that should > have created enough porosity to effect the possible loading. Rinse and > clean the metal well after etching. > > The process of electro-etching maybe the technique to us her as well. > Electro-etching, the cupronickel would be attached to the positive side of > the power supply, and etched using. One could use borax as an electrolyte > in the beginning, and place the cupronickel on anode (+) side, etch the > features, and then after a wash and rinse, use that nickel as the cathode > (-) in an the Sodium Carbonate standard electrolysis. Anyway, the idea with > sodium carbonate is to really load as much hyrdogen into the metal as > possible. > > Under DC electrolysis, a large portion of the energy will expended in the > separation of H2O into H gas and O gas. I think a better approach to a > Rossi or Calieanti system would be to use AC electrolysis once a high-level > of loading is achieved. So after running the system in DC-mode to load the > nano features with H, switching to AC should move the H into an out of the > nano features. If there is a tenancy for H to overcome the Coulomb barrier, > in the AC environment, the changing polarity might give an extra push. > Everyone seems to believe loading is a factor in successful excess heat. > Given how large a nickel is, I would not be surprised at the system taking > a long amount of time for DC electrolysis gas loading. Then switching to > AC to initiate a Rossi, Caliani type H gas motion into and out of the metal > nano etched surface structure. > > So the experiment protocol I would try would look something like this: > > Step 1) Etch the nickel. Either use a chemical etching or electro-etching > or sand blast it. For chemical etching, PCB etching solution may work, just > don't over do it. Also clean the nickel afterwards in water, ultra-sonic > jewelry cleaner may be a useful step. > Step 2) DC Electrolysis of Water and Sodium Carbonate, this is to load the > metal. This may need to run several days, the Nickel should be on the > negative terminal (cathode (-)). The anode could be graphite. Graphite > shouldn't oxidize under the gas bubbling and is neutral to Na+ ions. > (Note: an issue is the possible formation NaOH Sodium Hydroxide a strong > base). Jack Cole is using thoriated tungsten rods, which is an > interesting material. It should be resistant to Oxidation or damage from > Base/Acids for the most part. > Step 3) Switch to AC for heat. (Or pulsed DC). A high voltage DC pulse > might also be interesting (but use caution, X-ray are possible). > Step 3.5) This is where it could be fun to experiment, Switch the > electrolyte from sodium carbonate to borax solution. > Step 3.6) Change the AC Frequency? 60Hz -> XX Mhz. > Step 4) Repeat 2-3-3.5 as needed to replenish hydrogen. > > I'm going to replicate the liquid half-wave rectifier from the 1939 > Popular Science article. What an amazing find that was. > > Here are some Interesting facts about the Cupronickel alloy's. > > Copper/Nickel catalyst will contain more residual hydrate, hydroxyl and > carbonates that plain nickel catalysts. Undecomposed Copper/Nickel catalyst > reduces very easily in hydrogen with two distinct reduction peaks. The > first between 180-280 degrees C, and the second between 240-450 degrees C, > which corresponds to the reduction peak for nickel. I find it > interesting that Rossi preheats his nickel to these range of temperatures. > Cupronickels forms an FCC crystal typically 19Cu atoms per pure Cu > crystal, and Ni will substitute with a Cu forming a Cu(19-x)Ni(x) FCC > Crystal 111 surface. In cupronickel, from a H1s - Ni-3d bond. The H2 bond > is broken directly above the Ni atom, and the H will absorb into the hollow > sites on either side of the Ni atom. It's believe twice as much H is > chemisorbed near the Ni atoms into the latice. One can assume > the CuNi-d-band influences the H-1s state but more so near Ni. Cu does not > chemisorb H, Ni Does. Its believed that the d-band of Cu has 0.6 excess > electrons and Ni has 0.8 less electronics and there for interacts with H-1s > electron orbital. At 30%Ni 70%cu, the d band is full, and H is less > chemisorbed on the surface. It's also the most corrosion resistant at that > point. > > Best Regards, > Chuck > > > > On Sun, Oct 7, 2012 at 10:51 PM, Jack Cole <jcol...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi Chuck, >> >> I like your idea of submersing the whole thing. I did several runs >> today, and keep getting progressively better heat production (even as the >> temp has been falling through the evening). Seems to work best doing 20 >> minute runs followed by 20 minutes with the power off. I put 10 nickels on >> a thoriated tungsten rod. I first heated up the nickels with a torch after >> using them for awhile as the anode to oxidize the nickel and then burning >> off the oxidized nickel with the torch (thinking maybe this will cause >> microscopic pitting in the nickel). Then I did repeated hydrogen loadings >> using the nickels/tungsten for the cathode. If this is resistive heating, >> then it is highly efficient. I raised the temp of 5 oz of water 27F in 20 >> minutes on the last run. I'm thinking of setting up more of an automated >> DC pulsing system to see if that will do any better. >> >> Take care, >> Jack >> >> >> On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 10:25 PM, Chuck Sites <cbsit...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi Jack, >>> >>> Keep at it. It's a learning experience and probably one of the most >>> humbling simple experiments you can do. I remember very well the issue of >>> the alligator clips rusting and corroding over anode, and wondering "What >>> did that do?", What's in the plating of the alligator clip? Do you run >>> the cell covered, not covered. If I cover it, do H + O recombine, and at >>> what rate? >>> >>> I spent most of my time after seeing the "effect" developing an >>> automated data acquisition system. The end result was good, I had >>> automated 2 thermistor readings and a Geiger counter on a Sanyo 550 (IBM >>> 8086 sort-of clone) but not voltage or current. This was around 1992. I >>> wanted to have the whole system automated, just like the National >>> Instruments show. Just like P&F and all of the other electrolysis CF >>> experiments, I decided to build a calorimeter based on a large insulated >>> tank of water (a 7.5 gallon starfoam cooler) lined with >>> reflective Millard, with the water circulated, the top sealed (and also >>> reflective) and the CF cell immersed in the bath. The idea was to treat >>> the Cell as if it was a resistive heater, and measure the water bath heat >>> as it accumulated heat from the cell. If the effect was large enough, it >>> should easily overwhelm P=IV as the power accumulated in the thermally >>> sealed bath. >>> >>> The goal was to try B11 + p -> 3He4 + 8.7 MeV as a cold fusion surface >>> effect. Could that happen? I really don't know. >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> Chuck >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 9:52 PM, Jack Cole <jcol...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Chuck, >>>> >>>> My experiment has ended for today with my power supply blowing out. I >>>> think my last test was not a good test of the nickel vs copper. I was >>>> using what looks like a chrome plated alligator type clip as the anode in >>>> both. I can see where that could have been a problem as well as I don't >>>> know what it was plated with. Also, I think it's not a good idea to use >>>> the same power supply for two cells as it seems more current may flow one >>>> direction than the other? I didn't use any W in the copper cathode cell >>>> (only in the one with the nickels). >>>> >>>> Now here's the really curious thing. In the copper cell, the 10 ml of >>>> borax is gone. I tried to mix it in at the beginning, but it just settled >>>> back to the bottom. Some kind of chemistry was taking place. Perhaps >>>> producing boric acid? Some of it also appears to have collected in/on the >>>> anode. >>>> >>>> I'm using two small measuring glasses (150 ml capacity filled to 110 >>>> ml). Before the power supply blew after 3 1/2 hrs the copper cell hit >>>> 129.7F and the nickel cell was at 79.1. The nickel cell peaked out at 92.1 >>>> after 1 hour and slowly dropped. I think it was a current flow problem as >>>> those results for the nickel cell were not consistent with my first run. >>>> >>>> Also, for anyone trying to replicate should head the following. If you >>>> use a cooking thermometer, do not leave it in the cell while you are >>>> running the experiment. I did this with my first one, and it permanently >>>> altered the readout making it 20F too high because of some deposit on the >>>> metal that could not be removed. >>>> >>>> Jack >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Chuck Sites <cbsit...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Jack, >>>>> >>>>> Congratulations, your report is exactly in lines with what I saw >>>>> with Ni(+) Cu(-) in my jar experiments. That was typically 100ml of H2O >>>>> and a 3gm Na2B4O7 solution. Once the Ni coin breaks down just a little, >>>>> in >>>>> a constant voltage system, the current would jump up and the Ni coin would >>>>> get hot. (Your counter electrode, should be the temp of the solution). >>>>> Those quick calculations are interesting because your doing it like I did, >>>>> running an open system, no recombiner, and your system has >>>>> hit equilibrium. The fun part is that it will go for days like that, as >>>>> long as the water is replenished. Eventually you may need to add a little >>>>> more electrolyte. >>>>> >>>>> I know there is some complex boron chemistry going on with metal >>>>> oxides forming as a result which is typical of electrolysis. What is >>>>> unusual about this as far as Joule heating, or Ohmic heating, is that in a >>>>> typical wire, >>>>> heating occurs in a location where current is pinched where Q is >>>>> proportional to I^2 R. So typically as in a Nichrome wire, it's a small >>>>> diameter, and slightly higher resistance than the feeding electrodes. >>>>> Here >>>>> you have this really large hunk of metal (the Ni coin) and the feeding >>>>> wire >>>>> is smaller than the metal. It just such a large are >>>>> for resistive heating. >>>>> >>>>> I just read your update with the Cu coin as the (+) heating more. >>>>> What is your counter electrode material. Tungsten? It maybe, W is also >>>>> one of those interesting H absorbing materials. W was always on the todo >>>>> list though. Keep going, I'm really interested in seeing what you >>>>> get. Also, could you guess as to the size of your jar dimensions and >>>>> weight. A typical glass jar also has a pretty good size heat capacity. >>>>> >>>>> Best Regards, >>>>> Chuck >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 3:34 PM, Jack Cole <jcol...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> So that's 141.7g of water. It was an open container so heat freely >>>>>> dissipated and I would also presume that power was also going into >>>>>> electrolysis in addition to heating. So, based on Arnaud's calculations, >>>>>> we can't rule out purely electrical heating. I'll report on the next >>>>>> experiment which involves a control cell using pennies instead of nickels >>>>>> and no thoriated tungsten. I have two identical cells that I have filled >>>>>> with equal amounts of borax and water and will be powering from the same >>>>>> supply (one has thoriated tungsten/nickels and the other with >>>>>> pennies/copper). >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 2:10 PM, Jack Cole <jcol...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> It was 5 oz of water. I shut it down after the temp maxed out at >>>>>>> 158F. >>>>>>> On Oct 1, 2012 12:29 PM, "Arnaud Kodeck" <arnaud.kod...@lakoco.be> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ** >>>>>>>> Find here some simple calorimetry calculations : >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Electrical energy given to the system : 4.33 hours @ 12 watt = >>>>>>>> 187056 J => 44677 cal >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To rise the temp from 55 F to 146 F, the system need 50 cal/g of >>>>>>>> water. (Assuming electrodes and recipient are negligible) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Assuming no loss of heat by dissipation, the electrical energy >>>>>>>> released will rise the temperature of 44677 / 50 = 884g of water. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If Jack use more than 884g of water, we are sure that there is >>>>>>>> another energy source (chemical or other). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>> *From:* ken deboer [mailto:barlaz...@gmail.com] >>>>>>>> *Sent:* lundi 1 octobre 2012 19:00 >>>>>>>> *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com >>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Replication of Chuck Sites Nickel/Boron >>>>>>>> Experiment >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Very interesting, indeed. How much water are you using? If >>>>>>>> everything were 100% efficient, and you were inputting 12 watts/hr = >>>>>>>> ~40 >>>>>>>> btu/hr, over 3 hours you would have 120 btu, which theoretically could >>>>>>>> raise 1 pound of water 120 F. >>>>>>>> Best regards, kend >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 10:38 AM, Jack Cole <jcol...@gmail.com>wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks Jed, glad to do it. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Small update: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 7 am Temp 55F Start >>>>>>>>> 9 am Temp 110F >>>>>>>>> 10 am Temp 129F >>>>>>>>> 11:20 am Temp 146F >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Outside temp started at 55F and was at 57F at 11:20 am. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'll keep running until the temp levels off. At that point, I'll >>>>>>>>> work on setting up a control cell. The water has turned brown, so I >>>>>>>>> presume something is also happening with the copper (either in the >>>>>>>>> nickels >>>>>>>>> or the exposed portion of copper wire attaching to the electrode). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 10:00 AM, Jed Rothwell < >>>>>>>>> jedrothw...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks for doing this! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> - Jed >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >
