Ed-- It is my understanding the PEP applies to any QM system. Certainly to atoms but also to crystals like Pd crystals and the semi conductors in transistors and any number of different electronic devices that use voltage control in switching.
Bob Subject: Re: [Vo]:The elephant in the room, From: stor...@ix.netcom.com Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 11:44:43 -0700 CC: stor...@ix.netcom.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Axil, I see our basic problem. We have an entirely different understanding of what the words used in this discussion mean and how the concepts are applied. For example, the Pauli Exclusion principle applies to electrons in energy states within atoms. The walls of cracks contain electrons that are not assigned to an atom. Therefore, the PEP does not apply. I do not explain because the concept is irrelevant in my model. Fractofusion demonstrates that high voltages, i.e. large electric fields can exist in a crack for a brief time. I'm simply using this observed behavior to initiate formation of the required structure in the crack. The Hydroton is a molecule consisting of hydrogen atoms held together by electrons to which the PEP applies. Once this structure forms, which is an exothermic reaction, the structure is able to initiate a nuclear reaction. This process has no relationship to the PEP. Rather than trying to find flaws, you might first want to correctly and fully understand what I propose. Ed Storms On Feb 28, 2014, at 11:30 AM, Axil Axil wrote:Ed: "The high concentration of negative charge in the crack allows the nuclei to get closer than would be normally possible". The physics of quantum dots restricts this process from happening. Packing electrons is prohibited by the exclusion principle. Packing electrons into a crack is very energy intensive. The effects of the Pauli Exclusion Principle must be removed from "crack packing". Ed does not explain how the removal of the Pauli exclusion principle can happen. This Pauli exclusion principle violation is a physics sin that is just as bad as violating the conservation of energy or ignoring the coulomb barrier. On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 1:15 PM, Roarty, Francis X <francis.x.roa...@lmco.com> wrote: Axil, again well said [snip] The energy necessary for fusion does not come from chemical sources, it is derived from a quantum mechanical "squeezing" of EMF (photons and electrons) through the uncertainty principle without fermion exclusion imposed.[/snip] but this is beyond what ED is willing to hear.. you are endorsing a form of ZPE in violation of our current definition of COE. I happen to agree with you but this is really the sticking point trying to convince mainstream that quantum effects of geometry can do useful work based on HUP and PEP. I have always argued the effects are based on interactions with the random motion of gas atoms but am quite willing to accept your interpretation based on interaction with photons and electrons…. The challenge is proving that quantum effects can actually provide useful energy and arguing over how they do it can wait. Ed is saying show me the money..I mean energy.Fran From: Axil Axil [mailto:janap...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, February 28, 2014 12:17 PM To: vortex-l Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:The elephant in the room, The energy necessary for fusion does not come from chemical sources, it is derived from a quantum mechanical "squeezing" of EMF (photons and electrons) through the uncertainty principle without fermion exclusion imposed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle This energy is HUGE...almost unlimited,,,on the atomic scale. On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 12:07 PM, Edmund Storms <stor...@ix.netcom.com> wrote: Axil, these statements below describe the conditions that exist in a chemical structure. These conditions influence how energy can be localized and focused on a nuclear reaction taking place in the structure. The mechanism that is proposed to cause the nuclear reaction has to be consistent with these requirements and rues. The mechanism is not independent of its environment. Chemistry affects the mechanism that is proposed to cause LENR. You must not pretend that LENR, which is a nuclear process, can take place without considering the environment in which this occurs. The environment imposes limitations on what can happen, on the amount of energy that can be focused, and on how the released mass-energy is dissipated. These limitations involve the chemical properties of the environment. This is not like hot fusion that takes place in plasma, to which chemistry does not apply. LENR takes place in a material to which chemistry applies and must be considered. Ed Storms On Feb 28, 2014, at 9:53 AM, Axil Axil wrote: Ed: LENR is not a chemical process. What Ed says about the role of chemistry in LENR: Role of the Chemical Lattice and Chemical Environment A chemical system has three basic conditions that all events occurring in such a system must take into account. These conditions are basic to identifying the where because they limit how energy can flow in a chemical structure and the consequence of this flow. These conditions are: 1. A chemical system attempts to create a structure and a relationship between the atoms having the lowest possible Gibbs energy. A spontaneous change in the structure or in the atomic relationship must involve a loss of Gibbs energy. This behavior results from application of the Third Law of Thermodynamics. 2. The Second Law of Thermodynamics applies and prohibits spontaneous increase in average energy of this structure. Local fluctuations in energy are possible but always remain within a limited range of value too small to even affect the chemical structure. 3. Because the electrons and nuclei in a chemical structure are part of a collective, conditions at some locations cannot be changed without affecting other locations. For example, application of a small voltage will cause the free electrons to move in an effort to reduce the voltage, application of a local temperature will be quickly spread energy to all parts by vibrations between adjacent atoms, and application of a concentration gradient will cause the D+ to move within the structure so as to reduce the gradient. On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 11:45 AM, Edmund Storms <stor...@ix.netcom.com> wrote: On Feb 28, 2014, at 9:28 AM, Axil Axil wrote: Ed Storms is inconsistent in his logic. First he states that LENR is predicated on crack formation, and then he says that LENR is a chemical process. Axil, I find communication with you to be useless unless you actually read what I write. LENR is not a chemical process. It is a nuclear reaction. I claim that LENR can not occur in a chemical structure. I do not know how to make this more clear. Instead, I propose it occurs only in a gap in a material. LENR is a topological process that has nothing to do with chemistry. LENR is a nuclear reaction that occurs somewhere in a material. This is observed fact. Whether it is a topological process is a matter of opinion. Cracks are a topological mechanism. Cracks are a gap or absence of material within a material. This is they how they are defined. The mechanism that might operate is a matter of debate. To generalize the concept, any system that is topologically equivalent, will show the same LENR capabilities. For example, this includes cavatation and dusty plasma systems. If magnetic constraints are observed, the materials used don’t matter if they support the “crack topology”. For example, water will do just as well as nickel. I have no idea what these words mean or how they apply to the discussion. Under "there must be only one LENR cause" constraint, Ed Storms theory is inadequate. It does not explain, LENR in cavatation, in spark discharge, in exploding foils, in dusty plasmas (NiH reactor) in carbon arcing, LENR is lightning discharge, in volcanism, and so on. All these systems are topologically equivalent and can produce LENR reactions without any regard to chemistry. My theory does not explain these things because you have not heard me apply the theory to these events. You have no way of knowing whether the theory is inadequate or not. Nevertheless, I admit the theory is in the process of development. You are invited to help this process. Ed seems not to understand the concept of topological materials and topological systems. For example, a nanowire made of carbon, or nickel, or iron, or hydrogen, or water all behave in basically the same way without the constants of chemistry. Again, I have no idea what this means. These materials do not behave the same way. The properties and behavior are all very different, even with respect to LENR. Ed Storms Some background http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTaiIkQTmEc On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Edmund Storms <stor...@ix.netcom.com> wrote: On Feb 27, 2014, at 9:45 PM, Bob Cook wrote: Ed-- You said-- >Trying to fit QM to the lattice is a waste of time. I would note that the lattice is a QM system and, although complicated, obeys the various laws of QM including separate and unique energies for all like femions in the system and angular momentum for each particle at any given time and other properties associated with the wave function (WF) appropriate for the lattice with all its particles as a function of time. While what you say is true, Bob, it is irrelevant to LENR. These comments apply to many features of a lattice, but not to a nuclear reaction. A nuclear reaction is prevented by the Coulomb barrier. This barrier is known to be very effective and can only be overcome by applying high energy. That amount of energy is not available in a lattice. Simple hand-waving and using QM does not change this fact. We know this because if this amount of energy could be concentrated by an unknown process, no unstable chemical could exist. For example, an explosive would not stay stable. Eventually, this unknown energy-concentrating process would be initiated and the chemical reaction would take place. This simply does not happen. Yes, energy can be concentrated in special circumstances and to a limited amount, but the nuclear process we have to explain requires this process take place at at least 10^11 times a second for weeks. A chemical lattice does not contain the special features required to support such a process. These features can only occur in a gap or crack of a special size. I encourage you to apply your efforts to that condition and forget about the lattice. I would further note that lattice WF can be approximated and the interaction with various external stimuli estimated to allow engineering changes in the state of the system including lower total potential energy and higher kinetic energy in the form of heat. The changes may include nuclear and chemical changes at the same time. Yes, energy can be described mathematically by the WF concept. However the WF must be applied to a real condition. The condition to which it is being applied is not real. We know from a huge data set that energy is not spontaneously concentrated in a lattice above a very limited amount. Pretending otherwise is not useful. >From what you say-- >"the nuclear process MUST occur outside of the chemical structure." I find no basis for this conclusion. We seem not to agree on the basic natural laws that apply to the various LENR systems. Yes, that is the basic conflict between physics and chemistry. Chemistry tries to understand what actually occurs and physics focuses on what MIGHT happen. Do you understand and agree that the laws of thermodynamics apply to a lattice? Do you agree that they place a limit on how energy can operate in a chemical system? Do you agree that these laws operate at the atomic level? Do you agree these limits apply to a nuclear process? For example I would say as a proton enters the Pd lattice it becomes part of the QM lattice system, effecting a change in the potential energy, the kinetic energy and angular momentum of the system as a whole--with the various respective particles in the system changing and sharing the energy and momentum based on their respective characteristics of mass, charge, spin etc. That is a correct description. However, this does not case a nuclear process to happen. You need a mechanism that lowers the barrier and then dissipates MeV level of energy in small units of energy. Your description does not show how this can be done. Even considering our conceptual differences, I will read your book regarding LENR science when it comes out and probably have comments. I welcome your comments, Bob, because they reveal the conceptual differences I need to address to make the arguments effective in educating physicists. Ed Storms Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: Edmund Storms To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: Edmund Storms Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 2:17 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The elephant in the room, Exactly right John. The site of the nuclear process MUST occur outside of the chemical structure. Once the correct location is identified, QM can be applied in ways that are consistent with this environment. Trying to fit QM to the lattice is a waste of time. Ed Storms On Feb 27, 2014, at 3:08 PM, Foks0904 . wrote: Bob, Not to speak for Ed, but I believe he means that if a nuclear process were to take place within an empty lattice vacancy (i.e. the "chemical environment" of the cathode; either in bulk or on the surface) that we would see a number of chemical changes within the system well before a nuclear effect could manifest itself. This is why Ed postulates "nano-cracks" or "nano-voids" as the likely nuclear active environment (NAE) in the cathode, because these are domains that operate independently of the chemical lattice environment (i.e. are not influencing the cathodes' atomic structure) where nuclear effects can then manifest. Regards, John On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 1:55 PM, Bob Cook <frobertc...@hotmail.com> wrote: Ed-- You stated-- >If the limitations imposed by chemistry are applied to what is actually >observed, the explanation becomes much clearer. What limitations do you have in mind? Bob Cook ----- Original Message ----- From: Edmund Storms To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: Edmund Storms Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 9:07 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The elephant in the room, Axil, after considerable thought and examination of the literature, I can say with certain that the various theories are flawed because they do not acknowledge the chemical conditions in which LENR occurs. Too often various esoteric quantum processes are applied that are in basic conflict with the requirements imposed by the chemical structure and by well know laws and observation. If the limitations imposed by chemistry are applied to what is actually observed, the explanation becomes much clearer. You in particular, throw any idea that comes to mind at the wall and hope something sticks. As a result, your wall makes no sense to you. If you would focus on what is known about LENR, you would find out exactly what the elephant looks like. Ed Storms On Feb 27, 2014, at 9:29 AM, Axil Axil wrote: The primary issue that the LENR theorist faces is to judge “how much is enough” or “how far do we need to zoom in”. The reason why there are so many cold fusion theories is that most theorists have not approached the essence of the LENR issue. To illustrate the situation that LENR faces as a huge and vastly complicated issue is similar to the King who wanted to know the true essence of a problem. To teach his advisors a lesson on how best to arrive at truth, he asked his advisors to determine what an elephant looked like by feeling different parts of the elephant's body. The men were led into a darken room where an elephant quietly stood. The man who feels its leg says the elephant is like a pillar; the one who feels the tail says the elephant is like a rope; the one who feels the trunk says the elephant is like a tree branch; the one who feels the ear says the elephant is like a hand fan; the one who feels the belly says the elephant is like a wall; and the one who feels the tusk says the elephant is like a solid pipe. The king explains to them: All of you are right. The reason every one of you is telling it differently is because each one of you have touched the different part of the elephant. So, actually the elephant has all the features you mentioned. To know the true essence of the elephant, you must put all these characteristics together into a coherent whole. Like a huge elephant standing quietly in a darkened room, the reason why there are so many theories of LENR is because each theory limits itself to just one particular manifestation of the LENR phenomena. We must not confuse effect with cause. We must keep our hands moving and groping and feeling the huge dark animal that stands before us. We must keep on zooming in to find the true essence of what LENR is all about and not restrict ourselves to just one part of a vastly more complicated whole.
