# [Sun 06:05:40pm]--> kage has joined #warzone # [Sun 06:06:17pm]* kage is using an unfamiliar irc client; doesn't know what he's doing # [Sun 06:06:23pm]<kage> yo # [Sun 06:17:30pm]--> kage0 has joined #warzone # [Sun 06:18:11pm]* kage0 is using a gui client to make sure his better half isn't going insane with the ncurses-based one # [Sun 06:18:28pm]<kage0> anyone around? # [Sun 06:23:21pm]<devurandom> Yes... # [Sun 06:26:21pm]<kage0> cool # [Sun 06:39:18pm]<kage0> aside from being an insecure, but nonetheless useful character device, you're a wz dev, right? # [Sun 06:42:04pm]<devurandom> Yes. :) # [Sun 06:42:45pm]<kage0> okay # [Sun 06:43:11pm]<kage0> sorry - semi afk (making and/or eating food). have a few questions, if you've got a min # [Sun 06:47:51pm]<kage0> 1. with the current state of things: without code changes, is it possible to override campaign files with an external, secondary .wz file, so as to be usable in the campaign? # [Sun 06:48:21pm]<kage0> 2. is there support for video, or has that been ripped out (and if so, what formats)? # [Sun 06:49:48pm]<kage0> 3. do you know if just the video material is not gpl, or would a full transcript of the briefings still qualify as non-distributable material? # [Sun 06:50:54pm]<devurandom> 1. We have modding support to some extend. # [Sun 06:50:56pm]<kage0> reason i ask, is i want to put back the full briefings, at least in text-only form, with rewording if need be - as it stands right now, i'm trying to get a friend into warzone, and there's not much way he'll pick up on the story with everything ripped out # [Sun 06:51:39pm]<kage0> of course, anything i make, if legal to do so, would go right back to community under the gpl # [Sun 06:52:13pm]<devurandom> YOu can use --mod_ca mymodfile.wz as and commandline option, where mymodfile.wz is in mods/campaign # [Sun 06:52:34pm]<kage0> okay, sweet # [Sun 06:53:03pm]<devurandom> That will be improved in 2.1 to be more convenient to the user. # [Sun 06:53:29pm]<devurandom> (Without several directories for different game modes etc.) # [Sun 06:53:47pm]<kage0> modding support will be improved, or the briefings? # [Sun 06:53:52pm]<devurandom> 2. There is no support for videos and there never was in the GPL version, because the RPL decoder is property of Eidos. # [Sun 06:54:02pm]<devurandom> kage0: modding support. # [Sun 06:54:13pm]<kage0> okay # [Sun 06:54:31pm]<devurandom> 3. transcript of the briefings? You mean the text spoken in the videos? # [Sun 06:55:24pm]<kage0> sorry about 2 - expansion: if i happen to have the skill and initiative, i was thinking of redoing (from scratch) some of the movies, with enough differences to not get slapped in the face by a lawsuit (various things like the "new paradigm" logo would lo # [Sun 06:56:21pm]<kage0> expansion of 3: same as exists right now - text only, but with a lot more (if legally possible, then all) of the detail present in the original briefings # [Sun 06:56:44pm]<kage0> though... getting link... http://www.realtimestrategies.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1266&highlight=irc+warzone # [Sun 06:57:15pm]<kage0> who knows, if i can find and organize a few voice actors, i'd be more than happy to have the whole thing redone, if the voice actors are willing # [Sun 06:59:11pm]<devurandom> 2. We are currently thinking of extending the engine (in some later release, probably after 2.1) to support ingame cutscenes (like WC3)... # [Sun 06:59:52pm]<kage0> okay # [Sun 06:59:56pm]<devurandom> I don't know exactly about it, but if the logo is not only shown in the videos, then it would surely be GPL and thus no problem. # [Sun 07:01:01pm]<kage0> didn't the intelligence tab in game (showing previously completed research) have a little rpl-playing widget, or was that some other kind of animation? # [Sun 07:01:02pm]<devurandom> (PS: We are only _thinking_ about that. If you can ensure us that there will be a stunning video, then we also might investigate in getting a video player playing some videos. (I don't know how that'll work, esp. not on Windows.) # [Sun 07:02:00pm]<devurandom> I think the story is GPL (if a story can be that) as it is told in various other files than just RPLs. # [Sun 07:02:33pm]<kage0> heh, i used to work with windows a lot, until i found out there was *anything* else out there, and have programming experience to some degree, but not at all anything platform specific # [Sun 07:02:45pm]<devurandom> But the exact text and images which only appear in the videos are not GPL for sure. So it might be illegal to use that exact transcript you talked about. # [Sun 07:03:02pm]<kage0> okay # [Sun 07:03:27pm]<kage0> you ever played around with the quake2 on linux stuff? # [Sun 07:03:28pm]<devurandom> Telling the same story in different words (completely, not just slightly changed) would probably no problem. # [Sun 07:04:12pm]<devurandom> (Even thought this has to be redisigned. The current way of doing that is very probably shitty.) # [Sun 07:05:04pm]<devurandom> I don't know about the int screen and it's RPL widget. (I never saw the original game) # [Sun 07:05:22pm]<devurandom> I have quake2 here. # [Sun 07:05:38pm]<kage0> i was especially impressed with how, well, at least with certain distro's, you could use the package manager to either download completely gpl artwork, etc to play it with, or put in a disc you own and have it automatically copy in the entire original gam # [Sun 07:06:34pm]<devurandom> ioq2 or what's it called. Got the date from someone nice. (And in 7z format. Without cutscenes less than 70MB) # [Sun 07:08:15pm]<kage0> in any case, i've always wanted to see something like that with warzone: over the years, we've talked a lot about what we'd do with the source once we got it, and largely the consensus was to keep the gameplay the same -- it would be entirely within the r # [Sun 07:08:26pm]<devurandom> About redoing the cutscenes: We will find out how we'll do it. Probably after 2.1, because there are a lot of subsystems which need to be redesigned to make that work. # [Sun 07:10:01pm]<devurandom> And if we decide for the ingame cutscenes we need better models/textures. Voice acting would be cool (for both videos or ingame). # [Sun 07:10:19pm]<Cap`n`Kyth> the only times you get voice acting ingame is squads and VTOLs :x # [Sun 07:10:57pm]<devurandom> kage0: Using the original CDs could be difficult as we use different data formats... # [Sun 07:11:04pm]<kage0> in other words, making new movies and rewriting the dialogues are almost forbidden to me by my subconscious after being in the wz community for 4 or so years (at least the distribution of "non-true" parts of the game to others), however, giving an option # [Sun 07:12:37pm]<kage0> about redoing the cutscenes: don't worry about development vs movie completion... from what i know of designing anything that will even look close to the originals will take some time, even with a very dedicated team. you'd be looking at movie support by # [Sun 07:13:40pm]<devurandom> ok. # [Sun 07:14:10pm]<devurandom> I didn't quite get your words from xx:12... # [Sun 07:14:23pm]<devurandom> "in other words [...]" # [Sun 07:14:47pm]<devurandom> Do you mean that you can now offer videos as a mod? # [Sun 07:15:27pm]<kage0> no, not at all # [Sun 07:15:37pm]<kage0> this is all theoretical, so i have no movies right now # [Sun 07:16:06pm]<devurandom> Erm... sec I'll rephrase that. # [Sun 07:16:37pm]<devurandom> Do you mean that you are happy that could with the current mod support from the game offer videos as a mod? # [Sun 07:17:00pm]<kage0> the rpl format appears to *almost* follow spec, so it is possible me and a friend could come up with an intelligent "rip this well known format and 'find' data in similar formats" program # [Sun 07:17:31pm]<kage0> i don't think i quite understand that last message # [Sun 07:17:49pm]<kage0> are you saying "the current mod format *can* handle movies, just the engine can't"? # [Sun 07:18:19pm]<devurandom> Well, the mod format is plain zipfiles. That can handle everything. You can even try to offer the moon in it. ,) # [Sun 07:18:52pm]<devurandom> I was trying to understand you sentence from above. "in other words, making new movies [...]" # [Sun 07:19:30pm]<kage0> about the "in other words" - i'm just saying that most discussion of improvements to warzone that i've been a part of has had a "improve game, make look better, but don't change feel or gameplay". thus, creating new movies, voice overs, etc could possibly # [Sun 07:22:05pm]<devurandom> If someone provides the rips... # [Sun 07:22:19pm]<devurandom> And that can't happen officially. # [Sun 07:22:34pm]<devurandom> And with ingame cutscenes it will be very difficult to do it anyway. # [Sun 07:22:51pm]<kage0> thus, for the people who don't have a copy of the game, it makes no difference - we're offering them the best we can to give them the same quality content as in the original game, as per the restrictions placed on what parts of the game became gpl, howeve # [Sun 07:23:10pm]<kage0> no, i'm *definitely* not saying we provide the original content. # [Sun 07:25:20pm]<kage0> example: quake 2 installed from debian linux... # [Sun 07:25:20pm]<kage0> aptitude install quake2... # [Sun 07:25:20pm]<kage0> "would you like to download free content via the fully-gpl-but-limited-content demo or, optionally, if you have an original disc, you can have this installer rip all game files, convert them as necessary, and let you play the full game?" # [Sun 07:25:56pm]<kage0> the one thing the dmca does do for free software is explicitly allow certain types of fair-use reverse engineering # [Sun 07:28:43pm]<kage0> people who own the original game paid for a license to use all the content, including the movies and music so long as it's used within the game. the people who don't have the original game wouldn't have access to the original movies or the music because # [Sun 07:30:22pm]<kage0> i definitely am not trying to suggest anything that would have to be unofficial or could not be done legally # [Sun 07:30:37pm]<devurandom> Your postings are cut of after a certain length it seems... # [Sun 07:30:46pm]<kage0> ah, darn # [Sun 07:31:14pm]<kage0> okay. i have a second client open - i'll see which ones have been majorly cut # [Sun 07:32:40pm]<kage0> repost: hus, for the people who don't have a copy of the game, it makes no difference - we're offering them the best we can to give them the same quality content as in the original game, as per the restrictions placed on what parts of the game became gpl, # [Sun 07:32:44pm]<kage0> (of course, movies could not be in rpl format, sound would be ripped into ogg, etc), though if we can offer a fair use option (we're not distributing the original movies - that would be illegal - we're just providing an option for already licensed users t # [Sun 07:33:32pm]<devurandom> Was that cut of by my client, by your client of by the server? # [Sun 07:33:32pm]<kage0> repost: people who own the original game paid for a license to use all the content, including the movies and music so long as it's used within the game. the people who don't have the original game wouldn't have access to the original movies or the music # [Sun 07:33:38pm]<kage0> - it's all just semantics -- since no one would be distributing the movies or music, then there'd be nothing involved but fair use, and shouldn't be any legal issues. # [Sun 07:33:45pm]<kage0> my client too # [Sun 07:33:51pm]<kage0> it looks like it's a server thing # [Sun 07:34:07pm]<devurandom> I think the server has some limit. You can even query it... # [Sun 07:35:27pm]<kage0> i've got 2 clients open. one is readline-based, i think (definitely console), the other is the irc module through gaim (gtk based). - i've been posting from gaim, and that's definitely not cutting it off (probably because it has no way of knowing) - my co # [Sun 07:37:20pm]<devurandom> That convert on install sounds quite good as long as we are not using ingame cutscenes. # [Sun 07:37:25pm]<kage0> i'll have to ask some legal experts, but i think doing something like that (option of gpl or converted original content for game owners, just gpl for everything else, and *only* rip from cd of original content, and not a download, to both get the original # [Sun 07:37:44pm]<kage0> "ingame"? # [Sun 07:39:05pm]<devurandom> In ingame graphics. Like WC3... # [Sun 07:39:23pm]<devurandom> (At least that's the first example of it that comes to mind) # [Sun 07:39:51pm]<devurandom> StarCraft used something similar for the most part of the game (the one I played through before I gave up. ,) ) # [Sun 07:40:01pm]<devurandom> +I think [...] # [Sun 07:40:13pm]<kage0> heh, i've only played wc3 very briefly. are you talking about fmv's (2d raster moving images) that are displayed during the game, or something using the 3d image to effectively tell a story in a movie-esque way? # [Sun 07:40:28pm]<kage0> *correction from "3d image" to "3d engine" # [Sun 07:40:31pm]<devurandom> the latter. # [Sun 07:40:55pm]<devurandom> The former is also interesting and probably can be done before the engine is able of doing the latter. # [Sun 07:41:15pm]<Cap`n`Kyth> the latter requires craploads of careful scripting in how the maps are made too # [Sun 07:41:24pm]<Cap`n`Kyth> I've meddled with scripting in WC3 and it's insane. # [Sun 07:41:41pm]<devurandom> I have no clue how it works... # [Sun 07:41:58pm]<Cap`n`Kyth> it's powerful and flexible, but complex. # [Sun 07:41:59pm]<devurandom> And it was just an idea we had for some future version. # [Sun 07:42:05pm]<Cap`n`Kyth> heheh # [Sun 07:42:11pm]<kage0> the "former" i was referring to *are* the content stored within the rpls # [Sun 07:42:13pm]<devurandom> Perhaps we find an easy way to do it till then. # [Sun 07:42:18pm]<Cap`n`Kyth> 'm just backing up your point about the engine being unable to do it :) # [Sun 07:42:38pm]<devurandom> :P # [Sun 07:44:16pm]<devurandom> kage0: ? My former -> "using 2d images" (some text scrolling by, some images moving around) My latter -> "in the 3d engine" # [Sun 07:44:41pm]<kage0> afaik, any of the "latter" are already in the gpl game as it stands (views of the transport flying from place to place, etc) - the former can't be played because the codec is closed-source and copyrighted still. # [Sun 07:44:44pm]<devurandom> Perhaps I got the wrong meaning of former. (Like I had the wrong spelling of latter for quite some time) # [Sun 07:45:23pm]<devurandom> And perhaps we are refering to 2 different formers and latters at all. # [Sun 07:45:32pm]<kage0> i'm generally not as clear as i intend to be # [Sun 07:45:53pm]<kage0> actually, you're former does bring up a very interesting point: any of you ever play homeworld? # [Sun 07:46:07pm]<devurandom> Well, former and latter seem be be correctly used according to dict.leo.org # [Sun 07:46:20pm]<devurandom> kage0: AWESOME game. :) # [Sun 07:46:28pm]<devurandom> kage0: Played it here using Wine. :) # [Sun 07:46:40pm]<devurandom> There were 2d images? # [Sun 07:46:52pm]<devurandom> floating around with text in front of them? # [Sun 07:47:10pm]<kage0> the cutscenes in homeworld were perhaps some of the best i've ever seen in a game, and we're really simple compared to most. it would be, at the very least, a lot faster to make cutscenes similar to those before making "full motion" ones, and if they're g # [Sun 07:47:10pm]<devurandom> I remember everything being told in the 3d engine... # [Sun 07:47:27pm]<kage0> yeah, one of the games that works perfectly on wine # [Sun 07:47:42pm]<devurandom> So were were the 2d images in that game? # [Sun 07:47:50pm]<devurandom> (me just checks it out again) # [Sun 07:47:55pm]<kage0> though trying to force anti-aliasing looks really messed up bc of the way they did their lod stuff # [Sun 07:48:10pm]<Cap`n`Kyth> there was some 2D stuff in cutscenes as well I think # [Sun 07:48:32pm]<kage0> maybe i should clarify on some things. dev and cap, have you played the full retail game? # [Sun 07:48:52pm]<devurandom> I played it "only" on Wine. # [Sun 07:49:01pm]<devurandom> Perhaps something's missing htere... # [Sun 07:49:38pm]* Cap`n`Kyth has played Homeworld, Homeworld: Cataclysm and Homeworld 2 ;) # [Sun 07:49:45pm]<kage0> okay, so you've seen some of the rpls, etc? # [Sun 07:49:54pm]<kage0> oh, sorry. i mean played wz # [Sun 07:49:59pm]<devurandom> *grml* Now it doesn't detect the CD anymore... # [Sun 07:50:03pm]<kage0> full retail wz # [Sun 07:50:06pm]<Cap`n`Kyth> yep # [Sun 07:50:12pm]<devurandom> No I did not play WZ. # [Sun 07:50:18pm]<devurandom> And I did not see any RPL. # [Sun 07:50:32pm]* Cap`n`Kyth got most of the way through the campaign # [Sun 07:51:05pm]<kage0> wow, we need to get a "copies of wz for our devs" charity going # [Sun 07:51:18pm]<Cap`n`Kyth> heheh # [Sun 07:51:36pm]<devurandom> *g* # [Sun 07:51:51pm]* Cap`n`Kyth isn't a dev, just an old-timer. Occasionally plays classic WZ with his friends using Trillian, because they refuse to play Resurrection, the uneducated fools. # [Sun 07:52:04pm]<devurandom> If you send me a copy you pay more for the stamps than the game costed when you bought it... # [Sun 07:54:06pm]<kage0> okay. rpl's had 3 styles: # [Sun 07:54:16pm]<kage0> 1. briefings, which were 2d straight-top-down screenshots of the actual warzone maps, with some stylish spectrograms to the side in a "gui" type thing, and a voice very similar to the "computer" from the various later star-treks giving you info like "inte # [Sun 07:55:28pm]<kage0> the map would pan around on screen as it displayed different objectives (none of this used the 3d engine, mind you, only screenshots of the map with some colorful "dot and line" overlays showing enemy movements, objectives, etc) - think of descent: freesp # [Sun 07:57:19pm]<kage0> 2. communications, always which displayed the symbol/logo of the faction talking to you - all symbols are animated. that's pretty much all you see during communications. # [Sun 07:57:30pm]<Cap`n`Kyth> and of course interference # [Sun 07:57:37pm]<Cap`n`Kyth> white noise \o/ # [Sun 07:57:58pm]<Cap`n`Kyth> I think someone was trying to make a model of the Collective symbol. # [Sun 07:58:46pm]<kage0> 3. cutscenes - these are full motion "tell the story" videos - some show the transport escaping from a nuclear blast and almost being overtaken, etc. some are almost like historical documentaries, though with more of a "need to know basis" style to them # [Sun 07:58:55pm]<kage0> yes, definitely, white noise # [Sun 07:58:58pm]<kage0> thx # [Sun 07:59:22pm]<Cap`n`Kyth> briefings also sometimes included voice clips from the other "squads" IIRC. # [Sun 08:00:12pm]*** TJ has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) ) # [Sun 08:00:43pm]<kage0> for the cutscenes, think of anything from a westwood strategy, or starcraft, or something like that, but you never get to know any of the characters, because there really aren't any characters except for the factions as a whole, and they had much less of # [Sun 08:01:36pm]<kage0> come to think of it, if you've played wz resurrection, then you've heard the "star-trek like" female narrator's voice # [Sun 08:02:10pm]<kage0> in addition to the cutscenes, you hear that same voice in stuff like "major research completed" # [Sun 08:02:16pm]<Cap`n`Kyth> "Major Research Completed", etcetera. # [Sun 08:02:19pm]<devurandom> k # [Sun 08:02:21pm]<kage0> lol, yeah # [Sun 08:02:37pm]<kage0> so, cap, i want my brain back now... # [Sun 08:02:44pm]<devurandom> My Wine installation of Homeworld seems broken. :( # [Sun 08:02:57pm]<kage0> what's wrong with it? # [Sun 08:03:07pm]<devurandom> Doesn't find the Homeworld CD anymore... # [Sun 08:03:10pm]<Cap`n`Kyth> hey, the zombies need feeding to # [Sun 08:03:14pm]<Cap`n`Kyth> *too # [Sun 08:03:23pm]<kage0> stupid question, but "mount /cdrom" ? # [Sun 08:03:32pm]<devurandom> Does Wine need that? # [Sun 08:03:37pm]<kage0> oh, yes # [Sun 08:03:44pm]<devurandom> Uppala... # [Sun 08:04:10pm]<Cap`n`Kyth> the simplest mistakes are often the ones most often made :) # [Sun 08:04:16pm]<kage0> doesn't have permissions to do sector-based read access to the drive, so has to use the filesystem like any other program # [Sun 08:04:26pm]<kage0> don't tell me that fixed it for both of you? # [Sun 08:04:54pm]* Cap`n`Kyth uses WinXP. # [Sun 08:05:06pm]<Cap`n`Kyth> I don't have standard WZ installed. :P # [Sun 08:05:50pm]<Cap`n`Kyth> I know where the CD is, I just can't be arsed to install it, and I prefer WZ:R's windowed mode. # [Sun 08:05:57pm]* kage0 not getting hacked five times in the last minute # [Sun 08:06:21pm]<kage0> i think you can do windowed mode with the original # [Sun 08:06:39pm]* Cap`n`Kyth shrugs # [Sun 08:06:44pm]<Cap`n`Kyth> I'm lazy # [Sun 08:07:12pm]<kage0> well, if you know better, then only legit reasons for using windows are: a. you're too lazy, or b. you don't care # [Sun 08:07:30pm]<Cap`n`Kyth> or c: all of the above # [Sun 08:07:53pm]<kage0> or d: a, b, and can't give up any of your games # [Sun 08:08:04pm]<Cap`n`Kyth> actually, I use Windowed mode because I'm an IRC junkie and I like to keep tabs on IRC convos # [Sun 08:08:16pm]<kage0> heh # [Sun 08:08:27pm]<kage0> so, dev, did that fix your homeworld problem? # [Sun 08:08:43pm]<devurandom> back from watchin the first Homeworld cutscene... # [Sun 08:08:54pm]<kage0> heh. yeah, we could use something like that # [Sun 08:09:59pm]<devurandom> Is it possible that it is not used very often? # [Sun 08:10:16pm]<devurandom> I remember most of the story being told using the enigine... # [Sun 08:10:22pm]<kage0> what used not very often? # [Sun 08:10:25pm]<devurandom> (But I didn't play that far) # [Sun 08:10:38pm]<kage0> for wz? # [Sun 08:10:40pm]<devurandom> The cutscenes in Homeworld. # [Sun 08:11:02pm]<kage0> oh, yeah. homeworld gives you about 2/3 of the story using the 3d engine, i think # [Sun 08:11:10pm]<devurandom> Like the intro. Where I am told the beginning of the story. Why they build the spaceship and so on. # [Sun 08:11:46pm]<kage0> warzone though: about 90% of the story is through the rpls, which is why it's so brutal as is # [Sun 08:13:09pm]<kage0> out of interest, is the linux port specific to x86 linux, or could it, perhaps, run on say a ppc linux kernel, or arm, or sparc, or whatever (assuming it supports opengl and sdl) # [Sun 08:13:10pm]<devurandom> I think having those easier cutscenes like I just saw in Homeworld would be ok for the beginning. # [Sun 08:13:23pm]<devurandom> We probably need a bit more text as we have a little less voice. # [Sun 08:13:51pm]<kage0> well, there are already 2 voice actors in the community that said they might be interested in this # [Sun 08:14:18pm]<devurandom> kage0: As long as a pointer is the same size as an int on those systems you have at least little chances that Warzone will work. # [Sun 08:14:19pm]<kage0> i'm a big fan of the idea of having configurable locale-based (multilingual) subtitles, though # [Sun 08:14:43pm]<devurandom> If someone adds i18n support to WZ of course... # [Sun 08:15:46pm]<devurandom> kage0: And that is our current main problem with x86_64: sizeof(void*) > sizeof(int) on those systems. # [Sun 08:15:52pm]<kage0> i18n? # [Sun 08:16:05pm]<devurandom> But Pumpkin assumed that every pointer in the world only has 4 bytes... # [Sun 08:16:19pm]<devurandom> i18n = internationalization # [Sun 08:16:25pm]<kage0> i'm a programmer, but not much of a C (or related languages) programmer, so i never have to deal with the grit # [Sun 08:16:31pm]<devurandom> i, 18 other chars, n # [Sun 08:16:37pm]<kage0> cool # [Sun 08:17:04pm]<devurandom> Commonly used on Linux I think. At least it is the standard term for that in KDE. # [Sun 08:17:12pm]<devurandom> GNOME calls it l10n ;) # [Sun 08:17:48pm]<devurandom> localization, because they define it the other way round. Bringing something which is interational to your local language. # [Sun 08:17:56pm]<kage0> i can read C, but don't know everything about it (never was taught stuff like "extern" or "virtual" and always had to fumble through that), but, after first impressions, how clean/unclean is the wz code? # [Sun 08:18:17pm]<devurandom> You didn't ask that, did you? # [Sun 08:18:27pm]<kage0> heh, i don't use gnome or kde. i like a window manager to leave *some* memory left for other stuff # [Sun 08:18:33pm]<devurandom> *g* # [Sun 08:19:05pm]<devurandom> Well, if you'd read the code you probably wouldn't have asked... # [Sun 08:19:21pm]<devurandom> So you can't say that WZ's code is unclean.... # [Sun 08:19:27pm]<devurandom> It's worse than that. :P # [Sun 08:19:46pm]<kage0> i know gnome uses xml for all the ipc stuff, which is all well and good for a "let's make it as extensible as it ever could be", but bad for the "hey, this isn't *magical* hardware capable of 250 gigaflops of processing power" school of thought # [Sun 08:20:22pm]<kage0> what, you ever think it almost might be easier to have a sister project to write everything from scratch? # [Sun 08:21:11pm]<devurandom> Yes I thought about that... # [Sun 08:21:29pm]<devurandom> But discarded it. # [Sun 08:21:38pm]<devurandom> Grim tried it, dunno how far he got. # [Sun 08:21:49pm]<devurandom> Didn't hear anything from him since long. # [Sun 08:22:20pm]<devurandom> He was doing it with Torque so he looses the open-community-with-many-contributors bonus. # [Sun 08:22:41pm]<kage0> i don't know what kde uses for its ipc, but the resource guzzling is about the same... people will sacrifice a *lot* for user friendliness (even when they don't need it), and imo, it really helps perpetuate the myth that you need the latest and fastest co # [Sun 08:22:57pm]<kage0> torque? # [Sun 08:23:12pm]<devurandom> (Torque: Commercial product from GarageGames. Source only for payers (100$).) # [Sun 08:23:26pm]<kage0> arrgg # [Sun 08:23:29pm]<devurandom> Probably the best game engine you can get for that money. But still not open source. # [Sun 08:23:36pm]<kage0> he must not be a foss os user then # [Sun 08:23:43pm]<devurandom> Well, at least not open enough for many people to contribute. # [Sun 08:24:25pm]<devurandom> Torque has also an award winning netcode and that for only 100$. # [Sun 08:24:37pm]<kage0> great thing about commercial products is they're good for about 3 months. bad thing about them is they always discontinue support for any specific product, and open source alternatives always catch up after those 3 months and are more customizable afterwa # [Sun 08:24:38pm]<devurandom> But a no go for this project I think. # [Sun 08:25:17pm]<devurandom> kage0: Your sentence about web and email got truncated again... # [Sun 08:26:02pm]<kage0> well, i view such a thing about the same as i do with the direct-games stuff... you can *never* think you can control someone's computer to the point where they can't cheat in some way, and in this case, having only windows support in a now foss game pret # [Sun 08:26:08pm]<kage0> eh # [Sun 08:26:19pm]<kage0> repost: i don't know what kde uses for its ipc, but the resource guzzling is about the same... people will sacrifice a *lot* for user friendliness (even when they don't need it), and imo, it really helps perpetuate the myth that you need the latest and f # [Sun 08:26:22pm]<kage0> i used to work at a computer store, and probably made my managers hate me because i always told people "hey, if all you're doing is web, email, and office stuff, you're pentium 700 mhz computer is more than fast enough - if it's windows, you just have to # [Sun 08:26:59pm]<devurandom> kage0: That's not true for Torque. Old Dynamix wrote a game called Tribes (2). Somewhat after that they broke down. Some years ago they bought the rights to the engine they used for T2 back from Sierra. # [Sun 08:27:20pm]*** copperc0re has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) ) # [Sun 08:27:42pm]<kage0> windows users are the biggest gaming group out there, but i'm much more than convinced that gamers with foss operating systems are much more capable of finding out about games that aren't sitting on a retail shelf - i think, if not already, the largest us # [Sun 08:28:16pm]<devurandom> They called themselves GarageGames, developed it further and sold it for those 100$ under the formerly internal name Torque. Now they maintain that engine for a very long time and constantly have (free) updates for it. # [Sun 08:28:40pm]<devurandom> And currently they are also working on an improved version with shaders support and so forth. # [Sun 08:29:43pm]*** Cap`n`Kyth has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) ) # [Sun 08:30:11pm]<kage0> yes, but think of this: do you think they'll do anything with tribes 2 50 or 100 years from now. a current foss game will still be *available* 100 years from now, assuming we don't live in some draconian world where either computers or anything free doesn # [Sun 08:30:27pm]<devurandom> Well, I also started to write a game engine quite a while ago. But stoped because I am missing experience in that area. # [Sun 08:31:01pm]<devurandom> Thought about doing it with OGRE3D and some other tools later, but abandoned that too. And came back to Warzone in Summer this year. # [Sun 08:31:02pm]<PrezKennedy> do you think they'll do anything with tribes 2 50 or 100 years from now. a current foss game will still be *available* 100 years from no <-- funny # [Sun 08:31:28pm]<kage0> heh, i'm working on a game concept with a friend. he has all sorts of programming experience in the "real world". i just have all kinds of programming experience in the theoretical "this *could* happen, but i don't know if it'd be practical or not" # [Sun 08:31:30pm]<PrezKennedy> if sourceforge ever goes belly-up there goes most of the games # [Sun 08:32:03pm]<devurandom> kage0: You get the sourcecode of Torque along with the license to use and modify it. No, really. Torque is great... # [Sun 08:32:15pm]<kage0> eh, some games might be lost, but think of all the people with the code - it is free code, so there's nothing to stop someone from hosting it again # [Sun 08:32:23pm]<kage0> ah # [Sun 08:32:32pm]<kage0> okay, that's a little different. # [Sun 08:32:33pm]<devurandom> PrezKennedy: *g* # [Sun 08:32:52pm]<devurandom> Same applies for Torque. ;) # [Sun 08:33:07pm]<kage0> i thought it was one of those "use a starcraft-like mission/gameplay editor, import models, and it'll compile a custom executable for you" # [Sun 08:34:27pm]<PrezKennedy> unfortunately its very time consuming to keep an archive of source code and executables going of a bunch of different games # [Sun 08:34:45pm]<kage0> i'll have to look into the wz source then. i'm *intentionally* unemployed right now, but i haven't quite gotten out of my "do nothing and like it too" phase. # [Sun 08:34:48pm]<devurandom> No, you get the sourcecode to an engine which was used in a stunning realworld game, with award winning netcode and 64 players support out of the box (try to do that using Tribes:Vengeance from Vivendi (who bought Sierra some time ago)) which is further d # [Sun 08:34:57pm]--> coppercore has joined #warzone # [Sun 08:35:14pm]<PrezKennedy> i wish BF2 used tribes netcode # [Sun 08:35:18pm]<PrezKennedy> the game wouldnt suck so much # [Sun 08:35:20pm]<devurandom> *g* # [Sun 08:35:31pm]<PrezKennedy> and maybe they could hire the guy who did the missile launchers # [Sun 08:35:37pm]<kage0> heh, i wish dice wasn't stupid enough to think that punkbuster actually works # [Sun 08:36:13pm]<devurandom> One of the major mistakes that studio hired by Vivendi to do Tribes:Vengeance was to use the Unreal engine and not extend it to support that amount of players. # [Sun 08:37:15pm]<devurandom> (They are also missing a lot of other stuff, like sliding and loadout packs, but only being able to play with 10 -15 players is not enought for a T2 veteran. # [Sun 08:37:16pm]<kage0> if dice had proper programmers, then they'd have a game that could run 256 players for the same amount of system resources, and only slightly more bandwidth than it uses for 64 players # [Sun 08:37:26pm]<kage0> all they hire are code-monkeys though # [Sun 08:38:01pm]<devurandom> 256 players? Are you sure that is that easy? # [Sun 08:38:09pm]<kage0> heh, i've played the original tribes after it became open source, but whenever i got into a game, it took me about 3 seconds to get my ass kicked from 5 directions - i never was able to get passed that # [Sun 08:38:17pm]<kage0> have you played bf2? # [Sun 08:38:29pm]<devurandom> Tribes is opensource? I only knew T2 was freeware. # [Sun 08:38:37pm]<PrezKennedy> tribes is freeware # [Sun 08:38:50pm]<devurandom> Not opensource, correct? # [Sun 08:38:54pm]<kage0> thought it was no under some open source license (not necessarily gpl) # [Sun 08:38:58pm]<devurandom> I did not play BF2. # [Sun 08:39:09pm]<kage0> okay, then i'm sure it's that easy. # [Sun 08:39:16pm]<devurandom> ? # [Sun 08:39:51pm]<devurandom> You think it is easy to have 256 players on one server because I did not play BF2? # [Sun 08:39:59pm]<devurandom> Or did I miss something? # [Sun 08:41:48pm]<kage0> example: eve online... every single in-game object (floating bit of space debris, etc), is fully physics modelled and is controlled by a python object (and that's interperted code, mind you, not the uber-fast C type stuff). they have tens of thousands of # [Sun 08:42:44pm]<devurandom> Only 3-5 servers? # [Sun 08:43:18pm]<devurandom> And those servers are standard servers like found for many FPS games? # [Sun 08:43:43pm]<devurandom> 1-2GHz, 0,5 - 1GB RAM? # [Sun 08:43:46pm]<kage0> that's the difference between code-monkeys and programmers. i don't have any kind of degree in programming, but i make a lot better, say, java code than the average professional java "programmer". a degree in computer science says nothing about your skill # [Sun 08:44:47pm]<kage0> $9,000 usd is something like at 10 *logical* processor system with 32 gigabytes of very fast ram. eve online is a massively multiplayer game. # [Sun 08:45:17pm]*** nyhm has quit IRC ("leaving" ) # [Sun 08:45:52pm]<devurandom> Yes, but BF2 is a FPS. # [Sun 08:45:53pm]<kage0> however, if you do the math, my 3800+ (dual core) server, should be able to handle at least 300 players and 100,000 in-game objects if i were to somehow be able to run an eve online server # [Sun 08:46:13pm]<kage0> eve is fully 3d. graphics are around the same level # [Sun 08:46:20pm]<kage0> but a lot more computation required # [Sun 08:46:30pm]<devurandom> 3d graphics don't matter for that purpose. # [Sun 08:46:40pm]<kage0> as far as games go, a lot more goes on in eve than in bf2 # [Sun 08:47:17pm]<kage0> okay, per square meter of game-space in both games, a lot more goes on in eve # [Sun 08:47:19pm]<devurandom> BF2 might have bad netcode, ok. But you also wont be able to run a 300 players game of EVE on your home PC... # [Sun 08:47:28pm]<devurandom> I bet. # [Sun 08:47:46pm]<kage0> hell no, my connection sucks # [Sun 08:47:59pm]<kage0> but eve is very very very well thought out. bf2 isn't at all # [Sun 08:48:07pm]<devurandom> Do you know how much bandwidth a standard slot of FPS server has? # [Sun 08:48:16pm]<devurandom> I bet not enough for 300 players. # [Sun 08:48:28pm]<devurandom> How do you know that EVE is so well written? # [Sun 08:48:36pm]<devurandom> Did you see the code? Did you _write_ it? # [Sun 08:48:38pm]<kage0> eve does stuff like: if no one is around to see an object, don't calculate anything about it until anyone enters the area to which it could *possibly* be seen. # [Sun 08:48:56pm]<devurandom> BF2 can't do that I think. # [Sun 08:49:08pm]<devurandom> Because it is an FPS. The distances are not big enough. # [Sun 08:49:27pm]<devurandom> And for the part you can do with BSP trees, I bet BF2 does that allready. # [Sun 08:49:28pm]<kage0> bf2 does stuff like "if there is anyone in the game, send them data about any object that he should or shouldn't know about within draw distance # [Sun 08:50:36pm]<devurandom> Ok, I know some company which could do much better games if they listend to me, too. # [Sun 08:50:43pm]<kage0> no, if you had played bf2 online, you would've noticed how many cheaters and how many bugs are in that game, despite all their efforts to remove cheating and bugs. it becomes pretty obvious that the dice "programmers" aren't familiar with the term "binary # [Sun 08:51:03pm]<devurandom> But they seem to get money this way and that's everything what is important to them. # [Sun 08:51:23pm]<devurandom> "binary"? # [Sun 08:51:51pm]<devurandom> Did they offer the sourcecode? # [Sun 08:52:08pm]<devurandom> Or why don't they know the name "binary"? # [Sun 08:53:15pm]<kage0> no, however, you can determine many things about code from simple analysis of bandwidth, memory usage, memory usage deltas, processor usage and the deltas thereof, etc # [Sun 08:53:16pm]<devurandom> Hello Christian!!! Is it fun looking at the logs without participating in the real chat? # [Sun 08:53:26pm]<devurandom> tztztz... ;) # [Sun 08:53:36pm]<kage0> christian? # [Sun 08:53:55pm]<devurandom> Christian Ohm aka Cybersphinx # [Sun 08:53:56pm]<kage0> holy... i'm not exactly (or at all religious), if you're referring to me # [Sun 08:54:01pm]<kage0> oh, okay # [Sun 08:54:43pm]<devurandom> He seems to be listening to our conversation since a while. I get emails to the mailinglist where he refers to what we are talking about a minute earlier... # [Sun 08:55:23pm]<devurandom> And he quotes you. ;) # [Sun 08:55:52pm]<kage0> in bf2, you find that, if you join a server with no one in it, and measure your bandwidth usage, and then have 5 people join it, and put them *all the way* on the other side of the map, to where they are 7*maximum view distance away and are no way visible # [Sun 08:56:12pm]<devurandom> But he is also missing the endings of your sentences, because FreeNode cut them off. ;) # [Sun 08:56:22pm]<kage0> this automatically means that bf2 is a bandwidth guzzler # [Sun 08:56:31pm]<kage0> there are similar tests on the client for memory, etc. # [Sun 08:56:47pm]<devurandom> Hmmm... I never did such things... # [Sun 08:57:35pm]<devurandom> gtg now. # [Sun 08:57:41pm]<kage0> k, later # [Sun 08:57:42pm]<devurandom> Very late here allready. # [Sun 08:57:50pm]<devurandom> 04:00 :( # [Sun 08:57:55pm]<kage0> heh # [Sun 08:57:58pm]<devurandom> And I need to get up today... # [Sun 08:58:11pm]<kage0> well, i wont keep you # [Sun 08:58:24pm]<kage0> good night # [Sun 08:58:28pm]<devurandom> Ok, cu. And have fun with Christian listening to you. ;) # [Sun 08:58:29pm]<kage0> *morning # [Sun 08:58:32pm]<devurandom> *g* # [Sun 08:58:43pm]<devurandom> Good morning everyone! # [Sun 08:58:50pm]<devurandom> And sleep well. ;) # [Sun 08:59:04pm]<devurandom> Bye...
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