Hi!Well, I'm not replying to this post specifically, but the thread is too complicated, so I picked up a random mail! :)
If I sound a bit rude, I'm sorry, you know english is not my main language.
From my point of view, this is a very simple matter: shut up and do what Apple says. This is not a "blind apple fan" thing, it's reality.
Look at Apple's history. They switched from 68K to PowerPC. Then from classic OS 9 to OS X. Then (or before?) from ObjC to Java on WO. Then from PowerPC to Intel. Now from xCode to Eclipse.
Being portuguese and living in Portugal, far far away from Apple (not just geographically, our Apple representation is kind of a bad joke), I'm very used to this kind of stuff. I can't communicate with Apple. Although I work at an office that represents a relevant income for Apple IMC Portugal every year, I simply can't reach Apple (that's why I love WWDCs, it's the only week in the year I can actually talk to Apple people). This is to say: I think on Apple as those guys that are on their little bubble and do what they think is the best. You either like it, and adapt, or you don't, and go buy PCs.
With WO is the same thing. Apple deprecated their tools, and said to us "move to eclipse". You have three options:
1) Do what Apple says (tm).2) Stay on Apple tools, but not doing what Apple says. You will be totally screwed in a few years, trust me.
3) You move to another technology.From my point of view, 2) is not an option. Although I'm young, I've been a Mac user since 1987, and I *do* know that, if you don't adapt to Apple's decisions and wishes, you will have serious problems. You are not avoiding the cliff, you are just walking towards it a bit slower. 3) is not an option either, because I had decided that I would not do WebApps for a living unless I really had to, until I met WO. And there's still no other tech that I think is good enough. This is like an old alternative portuguese radio, called XFM, that was loved by a lot of people. Someone said "when XFM goes off, I'll have some radio tuners to sell." That is my opinion about WO: it's either WO or desktop apps for me, if I can decide. XFM died many years ago, WO is still here, so don't waste your time.
So, all it's left is 1). I like Apple stuff, it's the best stuff around. I don't like Apple as company, and I don't like some Apple attitudes. Bad for me. I still want to use Apple. So, shut up and do what Apple says. There's no other way.
So, i recommend you: either choose option 3, or 1. 2 is not the way. Stop wasting your time saying "oh, how do I love the graphical bindings" and start getting used to Eclipse. And trust me: it's not bad at all. It's actually very good. Much much better than xCode will ever be. Just buy some RAM.
Yours Miguel Arroz On 2007/09/04, at 22:37, Galen Rhodes wrote:
I appreciate that you weren't trying to antagonize anyone. I too have a problem with people misunderstanding my slightly strange attempts at humor. :PHowever, that being said, that is a lot of how it does feel. When you become very use to doing things a certain way and then suddenly everyone is telling to give it up and try something else then you tend to feel a little put out. Especially when you really had no problems with the way you were doing it in the first place.-- Galen Rhodes [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Sep 4, 2007, at 5:28 PM, Steven Mark McCraw wrote:For the record, I was trying to lend no comfort (cold or otherwise) by suggesting inline bindings. The tools are what they are. People were complaining about one aspect of the tool, and I offer inline bindings as a suggestion of what made that particular aspect of the tool workable for me, with the suggestion to try it and see if it had the same effect for you. I don't think anyone is calling anyone else slow or stupid or behind the times if they don't like the eclipse component editor. And certainly no one is trying to shove the eclipse component editor (which is apparently veal) down a vegetarian's (which is apparently the entire webobjects community) throat ;-p. But it is the accepted tool we have to work with, so it's nice to share tips about what helps and what has worked. No antagonism intended.On Sep 4, 2007, at 5:14 PM, Galen Rhodes wrote:That's the problem! It IS all about personal preference. No two people write code the same way. Just as people are individuals in their preference for color, clothes, music, whatever, people have preferences for how they write code! A good number of us became very use to working with WOBuilder and, yes, even got use to it's many quirks. What's faster for one person may very well be slower for others simply because we're use to working in a different way. For some of us who were use to WOBuilder, having to use Eclipse is like going from JEdit back to using VI. And telling us to try changing the paradigm even more by switching to inline bindings is cold comfort. You may as well be telling a lifelong vegetarian to just shut up and try the veal.-- Galen Rhodes [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Sep 4, 2007, at 4:42 PM, Mike Schrag wrote:- the ability to see, in a graphical way, what components are contained in other components, what they are, and (for simple things like conditionals), what their main binding is. Using WOBuilder with a complex component I can see what I need in less than a second, while it sometimes takes minutes in Eclipse to do the same thing. Although viewing tables is much easier this way, that's not the important thing. I don't need to see how the page will look-- I want to see the component hierarchy in a graphical way.Just personal preference on this one ... I find the exact opposite. We don't do almost any table layout, and opening a complex css-laid-out component in WOBuilder appears to me to be unintelligible. Component editor in Eclipse shows both an outline view of your components as well as the collapsible HTML editor with rollovers that show the span of each tag. But this has been debated to death, so I'm leaving this at "personal preference."- the ability to cut or copy a whole group of elements and paste them somewhere else, bindings and all.This could definitely be added into component editor ... I can pretty easily, I think, track the associated wod bindings when you cut HTML and autocut/copy related wod entries.ms _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/grhodes% 40thissmallworld.comThis email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]_______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mark% 40bluecollarsoftware.comThis email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]_______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/arroz% 40guiamac.comThis email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Miguel Arroz http://www.terminalapp.net http://www.ipragma.com
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