Hey Dave,
quite compelling... cheers.
On 07/11/2009, at 12:50 AM, David Avendasora wrote:
On Nov 6, 2009, at 8:17 AM, Mike Schrag wrote:
So if we're stirring the pot here ... For me, it's not being cool
in the browser, it's about Java apps looking terrible. You can
immediately tell when you're using a Java app ... Things are just
never quite right, but they try to sell themselves as being native.
It's an uncanny valley situation. Eclipse/SWT are using native
controls for lots of things and they get it wrong, too. Swing just
doesn't have a chance. Go try IDEA -- it looks TERRIBLE. Look at
their preference panels. I tweeted when IDEA went free that I can
see how to make Eclipse right, but I'd never be able to make IDEA
right.
I understand the uncanny valley. In most cases you are absolutely
right. Here's a screen grab from my current D2JC project, I think it
looks pretty good, although it doesn't look like a modern OS X app
(iTunes, etc):
<PastedGraphic-3.png>
For browser apps, it's obvious they're not native apps, and the bar
is set low in the browser at this point, so you can make a slick
looking app, and it doesn't have to be perfectly native, and people
are still OK with it. I would be far more interested in CocoaClient
where you actually have a chance of pulling off a nice end-user
deliverable.
I agree. For me a WO Cocoa Client is the Holy Grail of Client-
Server. I want it. Badly.
That said, I recognize that there are plenty of apps where "looking
slick" doesn't really matter -- that you just need to get some
business app out there. But what does Java bring to the table that
you're not getting in the browser?
With plain WebObjects JavaClient, you get
1) Real Java on the client. No messing around learning JavaScript
(or waiting for the "next great JS framework") to implement UI logic.
2) EOF on the Client with
- automatic syncing of Client and Server EditingContexts (works
very similar to Child ECs)
- batching
- faulting
- validation
Why not just use D2W? Drag and drop is about the only thing, and
that will be in the good browsers pretty soon.
For me, it's not about the features you get in the client, although
there's some cool stuff that way too. It's the dead-simple
development side that makes it so awesome to me. With WebObjects
D2JC you don't have to write _any_ code at all. No HTML. No CSS. No
JavaScript. Not even rules! You hear that D2W guys? The D2JC
EOAssistant works great and it will write most of the rules you
need! Here's a screen capture of it (it's also a Java Client app
that communicates with WOLips to update the user.d2wmodel file):
<PastedGraphic-6.tiff>
Anyway, I didn't mean to hijack this thread with Java Client, but
hey Anjo brought it up! :-P
Dave
I do, however, think D2JC is a _neat_ technology, in that it's
amazingly clever what it's doing under the covers, I just am not
sold on the end result.
ms
On Nov 6, 2009, at 7:41 AM, David Avendasora wrote:
Hey! Did I hear "JavaClient"?! :-D
Yeah, it will be cool if someday we get the tools to do something
client-server like JavaClient.
Oh wait! We already _have_ WebObjects-based JavaClient, and Direct-
To-JavaClient and it works today and has for _years_.
Sure, it's not as "cool" as a browser-based solution, in the same
way WO isn't as "cool" as Ruby.
**ducks, runs for cover and scrambles to get the D2JC project
template updated**
Dave
On Nov 6, 2009, at 7:32 AM, Anjo Krank wrote:
Not really sure... basically you'd need something totally new, as
this would be more like JavaClient and not like a web app. But
all this is *moot* until we don't have it.
Cheers, Anjo
Am 06.11.2009 um 13:05 schrieb Mike Schrag:
Yeah .. I suspect there could be a GianduiaLook, and that would
make a lot of sesnse.
ms
I think we've seen with the SproutCore stuff that it's not.
Apart from *maybe* a JS D2W.
Cheers, Anjo
Am 06.11.2009 um 02:54 schrieb Mike Schrag:
rom my perspective, I don't know that it's worth building a
server stack on top of it as much as I think it would be nice
to leverage the development tools we already have to make it
easier to write the Javascript.
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