Huy wrote:
I do not mean Rails is actually a *better* tool. I mean it gathers the whole community of Ruby, which leads to more user contributions, with more frequent updates: Rails 0.10 has been released on March 7th; and merged into Gentoo Linux which I use the 10th. That's the kind of fact I would be happy to show with Webware, which I prefer, when debating with developers and my fellow coworkers who defend Ruby and most of the time PHP.PHP and Rails are strong because the whole community agreed that choosing a "main" (in not single) framework was more important than any technical argument/point of view/limitation/whatever.
Is Rails strong ? I've looked at it and have not been that impressed. I've written a code generator for webware + cheetah (using cheetah) 2 years ago to do all this stuff. What's the big deal ! The crud stuff is always the easiest thing to do anyway. The business logic has always been the main challenge in all the applications I've been involved with regardless of language or platform.
I think I know what it's used for ;-). Personnaly I use either SQLObject for simple query, because I like the elegant model of ORMs, or "raw" MySQLdb when I think it will be more efficient (i.e. SQLObject would make more calls to DBMS to achieve the same result). But even if I.Bicking a known and respected figure in the python community, MiddleKit is always the reference tool on the official webware4python site.3. Clearly an non-ambiguously define which packages are prefered and which are deprecated: e.g. Many people advocate SQLObject for Rails-alike sites (which I agree), but nowhere is it clearly defined that one must choose SQLObject over MiddleKit, say for new sites. e.g. I completely failed to understand what UserKit is meant for and how to use it; googling about it did not return valuable info or a good example.
My only advice is, ff you don't know what it's used for, don't use it. That would go for anything really. If you can't think of why SQLObject should not be used instead of MiddleKit then just use SQLObject. You guys need to make certain decisions on your own. All the information is out there to make your own judgements.
I've myself been working for one the biggest french banking company, so i fully understand what legacy software is. That's the kind of company where you just can't put another other tool/language in the development process (let alone the production servers) whitout a serious motivation4. Release early release often: The only thing that stops me to actually put big Webware sites on the corporate servers in the company i'm working for is seeing that same 0.8.1 version for so long. I know that development is still going on: I'm regularly updating my development box from [EMAIL PROTECTED] webware module but any serious management will throw me away if I ever speak of a CVS version on a prod server (even a tiny one).
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Trust matters, and the best way to ensure trust is to *show* that things evolve; knowing it is not sufficient.
Generally evolution is important but so is simplicity. I've been involved with two projects using a 20year old 4GL to write cgi programs serving hundreds of users across multiple countries. Both projects were huge successes (we're talking big bucks) and still are running today and hopefully for many years to come. The moral of this story, if I can write it in this 4GL, believe me I could have done a much better job in Webware (and Python if I new about it 5 years ago) so I'm definitely not complaining. Ohh and by the way, whoever said CGI was not scaleable was talking out of their ass.
and concrete facts. For every honest person there is no doubt that python+Webware is a great tool, but if you look on the long term, the biggest point for decision is the momentum accumulated by the framework you choose Has it gathered a large enough community to be still of some use along the whole planned duration of our projects ?
And for CGI I certainly do not spit on it (I didn't even say CGI in my post). Like most of us (i believe) I've started with wkcgi before switching to mod_webkit2.
But even if I lack experimenting with Webware long-term running servers, I'm definitely confident about robustness because of the great foundations it's built upon (no MS IIS inetinfo.exe process with 1850MB VM size...), and I will make mod_webkit my 1st choice.
OFS.Huy
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