Phew! We need a book........ and read at leisure -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of aggrey adrale Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 1:53 PM To: A Virtual Network for friends of West Nile Subject: Re: [WestNileNet] {Disarmed} Re: {Disarmed} Re: Ten reason why Asian students excel in academics
Dear Vasco Oguzua, I thank God and myself that I am back to my computer and I can ably respond to you and make you know that we are on the same debate. First of all I want to apologise that for unknown reason your response to me got posted under spam messages that is why I could not respond immediately, save for other commitments that kept me away from the computer. Your response to John over what he shared in good faith is right below here and I am only going to give it a few punches here and there in the way I understood it, which prompted the piece I earlier wrote to you and you denouced of having no bearing to your debate. I am glad you expressed your opinion about it anyhow. Your first sentence reads, "I do not think there is really anything much to infer from this reading, because the comparisons of social , economic, educational infrastructure in the places in these articles can not be compared with what we have in Uganda or West Nile for that matter." As an opening you even failed to appreciate the warm heart John had in sharing that piece. To you the social, economic, educational infrastructure and other conditions in the places in these articles can not be compared with what we have in Uganda or West Nile for that matter. Unless you may want us to belive that the good amenities enjoyed by those superior economies just dropped in from heaven then there would be no reason for us to exist as individuals, a people, society or even country. You may need to go backwards to dig into the histories, geographies, status of the educational infrastructure and all other socio-economies of those countries (which now have superior economies) that is when it will dawn on you that these countries or societies were at one time like or worse than us. Such is the reason why at home we had oral tradition and in school we study subjects like History, Geography, Economics, Political Economies and even some sciences to compare notes. If we then remain dismissive and say that because of the current advanced status of those societies we can not infer "anything" we miss the point and it is worth saying that we should not even be trying to develop at what ever level, personal of community. I pointed out the best brains from the poor and developed countries in comparison at the micro level and in the same spirit macro (country) level comparisons may be done. Your second point goes, "While indeed it is important to talk about encouraging students and parents to work hard, there are certain basic necessities that really have to be in place. We may think that China is a third world, but I think China is far developed than a country like Uganda with almost no basic necessities of economic and social amenities....Is Uganda not getting aid from China for some of its development projects!!!."... I really want to make it apparent to you that we as a society have the basic necessities and social amenities, save perhaps for our own failures to spot the opportunities. It goes back to my earlier argument that China as a developed third world country did not emerge one good morning and found herself in that status. The people set ambitions after seeing opportunities; they worked hard, that is the synergy between ambition and hard work at them...it doesn't necessarily mean cracking your palm or brain but working, measuring achievements and maintaining focus to attain your dreams preferably in a period agreeable to yourself. Some of the basic economic and social amenities that are seemingly in place in China were not there before and they are not there in every part of China! My good friend Vasco, do not get deceived that when these countries boast of blossoming economies everything was and is rossy all over their nations. In many aspects these countries were even worse tha n some of the underdeveloped third world economies. Even in their present successful status they still have some regions, society and people who are worse than our so called poor regions, society and people in every aspect. Furthermore, aid because it mainly flows from the rich to the poor, per se is not always because the countries or individuals just want to help due to their higher economies; you may wish to believe or not that much of the aid floating around in the world is out of the fear of the developed or richer economies loosing their dominance. Thinking that "the parents and students in Uganda or West Nile 'can not' easily relate to this article [since] there are no common easily identifiable attributes they have with people living in these countries listed. The opportunities and infrastructure for anyone poor person to get rich in America are not the same as the opportunities and infrastructure for poor people in Uganda or West Nile. The poorest person in America could considered a middle class in Uganda because anyone making less than $20, 000.00 a year in the USA is considered poor.... and yet in Uganda that would be a lot of money.The poorest public schools in the US could be considered some of the best schools in Uganda just in terms of the infrastructure alone. I do not know how hard work in US and hard work in Uganda or West Nile could be compared, especially due to the difference in socio-economic amenities available to the people." You are right to say "I do not know how hard work..." but I say no to th e rest of your assertions above.Through your article you may have already discouraged many feeble hearted souls, if they cared to read. We have a lot of common easily identifiable attributes save for the built environments in those countries, which seemed to have influenced your opinion to say that. You may need to infer upon other socio-economic comparisons [inclusive of the micro level] in order to belive that. A positive outlook would be a further good touch to compare the developed and our society. We have opportunities and some good infrastructure in our own context, which if genuinely compared gives a better quality of life. I have seen people attracted by the good life out there with all the opportunities and (1) they cannot come back because they cannot even raise the required money for an airticket; (2) come back to be challenged by the progress made by those they left behind in the land of 'little or no opportunities'; (3) come back just to fit like others in soc iety without anything strange or differrent or of special recognition. In short you may not my brother conclude for all other readers. Saying that "it would make sense to compare how a poor person in Sudan, or DRC or Tanzania or Kenya was able to do better than a poor man in Uganda. Even then the environments [in] these countries for the poor people where they would be operating would be different, (even) though they are neighbouring countries" is tantamount to a child coming back with an examination report showing s/he was the best in a class of dull pupils. Tell me if you as a parent in any sense of the word would be happy from the bottom of your heart about that result, let alone using the dullest pupils in class as the reference point. Our poor parents wouldn't be happy either, I guess. "Our issues should be how we can foster an understanding of building or improving the institutions that are supposed to help poor people improve their lives and advocacy of empowering our people to use the available resources improve their situation." This is an escapist statement from personal responsibility. I already gave my opinion over this based on field experiences and readings I have done that the reverse as stated in my earlier response seems to contribute more to sustainable development in most aspects than your statement. You may wish to do more research on that. In conclusion Mr. Vasco I would like to make it clear that I understood what you wrote in response to John's piece in the very nature you published it in this forum, unless you meant otherwise, which you kept to yourself. You may need to make the intentions of your debate clear through future writings and other fora. In any case my duty is to understand them the way they are and the way they will be written or said - I will not have to study literature in order to understand your writings or words. Happy New Year to you and all those who will partake of this piece in your various understandings. Aggrey Adrale --- On Fri, 14/1/11, Vasco Oguzua <[email protected]> wrote: From: Vasco Oguzua <[email protected]> Subject: {Disarmed} Re: [WestNileNet] {Disarmed} Re: Ten reason why Asian students excel in academics To: "A Virtual Network for friends of West Nile" <[email protected]> Date: Friday, 14 January, 2011, 20:14 Dear Aggrey Adrale, Reading from your post, it is evident that you did not comprehend the premise or point argument in the article John posted and my response to that article. You have confused HARD WORK with AMBITION, which you have so much expressed in your article. These two words are not synonymous and they do not mean the same. So there is not much for me to argue with you on this issue because we are not discussing the same issue in my view. You have further gone to talk about listing best brains originating from our locale which in my view was not the topic of discussion in those articles. I would request that you go back and re-read John's article so that you have a better understanding what was being presented and why i responded the way I did. There is not doubt we have brilliant brains in our community (local, National, Continent). I would like to remind you that the best examples of hard were amongst our community have been presented many times in some of the articles I believe the Monitor or New vision carried our sometime back if you have been following reading some of the articles in the news. When we want to compare HARD WORK amongst developed and least developed countries we may need to establish some common grounds or similarities in the criteria upon which such comparisons are based for the comparison to be meaningful and for people to learn from if the purpose of the comparison is to be educative at all.I have no doubt in my mind that we can excel in any competetion with the developed world if the grounds of out completion are the same for the competetors. Since you missed the gist of the argument in the article, I am not surprised that you missed the point of my response and have gone to talk about ambition which is not the point of discussion in those articles. I hope you remember one of our brothers who represented Uganda in the Internationa Debating Competetion which occurred somewhere in Europe. All he needed was to be provided an opportunity to participate and he indeed did represented us so well. Without that opportunity what HARD Work alone would not have taken him that far. The point in my response was the importance of creating a condusive environment in which where people can try their Luck through hard work, I am sure you may have childreon or sisters or brothers or relatives who are studying in schools Kampala or even in schools like Mvara, Ombaci., Muni but not in some of thsoe USE schools in the village. You definitely know why you would prefer or have your relatives in those schools other than those other poor schools with very little facilities and infrasctructure. You may want to re-examine your concept of ambition in the context of the premise of the original article. Vasco On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 2:41 AM, aggrey adrale <[email protected]> wrote: Dear Vasco, Thank you for your opinion on the article posted by John. Perhaps I would say that you just gave it a sloppy treat and couldn't pick from some of the examples of the best brains we have in the world originating from Africa, Uganda and West Nile in particular, though few despite the poor socio-economic, built environment and academic backgrounds they started from. I would have mentioned their names but permit me not to for the purpose of not diluting this debate and giving the opportunity to you and others who may have wished to think like you to positively look at the merits and demerits of what John shared with the forum. China, Singapore and other countries like them set themselves high ambitions from the potentials they knew they had, to get to the levels which you do not want us to think about. We also do have our potentials, only that many times we do not sit down to evaluate and re-evaluate our selves other than marvelling at other peoples achievements - in simple terms, we give up!. Those achievements are not out of nothing but carefully orchestrated plans and reviews coupled with hard work. Reading from the histories (let alone what is commonly published) of the highly developed countries including China and Singapore, they didn't have to start from the macro or policy levels. Rather they held their micro-ambitions which, after relatively developing, they used to set policies and influence decisions. It is not a bad idea setting high ambitions and such were the ambitions of countries such as China, Singapore and others now considerably developed. So it goes that at personal, family and other levels we can set and maintain such high ambitions and where we feel challenged we can still have the moral obligation of encouraging others such as our children, dependent siblings and all others that we care for. Perhaps our weaknesses are at policy level but at the micro level we have a duty to try and compete with the worlds best. Saying that and I quote from your contribution, "our issues should be how we can foster an understanding of building or improving the institutions that are supposed to help poor people improve their lives and advocacy of empowering our people to use the available resources improve their situation". I would like to turn your statement in the reverse order that we first use the available resources to improve our situation and emerge as an empowered society to advocate for further improvement of our lives; build and improve institutions that help to protect our improved lives. Please when you review your contribution to what John posted, encourage us to try and fail but not fail to try to rate our selves against the world's best. Aggrey Adrale --- On Wed, 12/1/11, Vasco Oguzua <[email protected]> wrote: From: Vasco Oguzua <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [WestNileNet] Ten reason why Asian students excel in academics To: "A Virtual Network for friends of West Nile" <[email protected]> Date: Wednesday, 12 January, 2011, 18:45 John, I do not think there is really anything much to infer from this reading, because the comparisons of social , economic, educational infrastructure in the places in these articles can not be compared with what we have in Uganda or West Nile for that matter. While indeed it is important to talk about encouraging students and parents to work hard, there are certain basic necessities that really have to be in place. We may think that China is a third world, but I think China is far developed than a country like Uganda with almost no basic necessities of economic and social amenities....Is Uganda not getting aid from China for some of its development projects!!!. I think the parents and students in Uganda or West Nile can not easily relate to this article there are no common easily identifiable attributes they have with people living in these countries listed. The opportunities and infrastructure for anyone poor person to get rich in America are not the same as the opportunities and infrastructure for poor people in Uganda or West Nile. The poorest person in America could considered a middle class in Uganda because anyone making less than $20, 000.00 a year in the USA is considered poor.... and yet in Uganda that would be a lot of money.The poorest public schools in the US could be considered some of the best schools in Uganda just in terms of the infrastructure alone. I do not know how hard work in US and hard work in Uganda or West Nile could be compared, especially due to the difference in socio-economic amenities available to the people. It would make sense to compare how a poor person in Sudan, or DRC or Tanzania or Kenya was able to do better than a poor man in Uganda. Even then the environments these countries for the poor people where they would be operating would be different, even though they are neighbouring countries. Our issues should be how we can foster an understanding of building or improving the institutions that are supposed to help poor people improve their lives and advocacy of empowering our people to use the available resources improve their situation. Vasco On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 10:52 AM, JohnAJackson <MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "uk.mc297.mail.yahoo.com" claiming to be MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "uk.mc297.mail.yahoo.com" claiming to be [email protected]> wrote: Dear friends of West Nile Forum , I thought you might like to read this info and tune the mind of your brothers, sisters, sons or duaghters Top 10 Ways To Play China's Obsession With Academic Excellence by Tony Sagami Dear John, I was less than two years old when my parents divorced in 1957 for us in America. Why? My mother knew that a half-Japanese, half-American child had limited opportunities in Japan. It wasn't like it is today; the wounds from World War II were too fresh. I would have never gone to a top university or landed a top job. Even though my mother barely spoke English and seldom had more than two nickels to rub together, she fiercely held to the idea of the American dream. "In America, anybody can get rich if they work hard," she told me. My mother ordered me to sit in the front row right in front of the teacher's desk. She gave me almost daily lectures on the importance of education, and punished me severely if I brought home anything less than an A. My mother was a big believer in corporal punishment and I got the spankings of my life for anything less than straight A's. For someone who started off as a homeless immigrant, my mother saw all her children grow up to achieve great professional success. I am sad to say that my mother died seven years ago from cancer, but I preach the same lessons about education to my children to this day. External Sponsorship Guess Who Tops Global Education Performance? Students from 65 countries, including the United States, recently took the Program for International Student Assessment, known as PISA, given by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD). Guess who came in first in reading, math and science? Students in China's Shanghai Province. To view the OECD's PISA press release, click here. To jump directly to the PISA data table, click here. That is very impressive given that this is the first time China had taken part in the test. PISA tests are scored on a scale with 500 as the average. Two-thirds of students in participating countries score between 400 and 600. On the math test, the Chinese students beat everybody by a wide margin. Second-place Singapore, which has been seen as an educational superstar in recent years, scored 562. Germany was a distant third at 513. The United States scored 487, a score that was behind 30 other countries. On the reading test, China had the top score again at 556. South Korea came in second with 539 and the United States came in 17th with a 500, clustered around students from the Netherlands, Belgium, Norway, Germany, France, and the United Kingdom. In science, China was first AGAIN with a 575. Finland came in second with a 554 and the United States came in 23rd with a 502. What is the secret to China's academic success? Simple; they work their butts off. Most Chinese students don't finish until 5 p.m. or 6 p.m., watch little television and play very few video games. Chinese students are prohibited from working before the age of 16, so they can concentrate on school. Plus, most students attend tutoring classes after school and on Saturdays. "Very rarely do children in other countries receive academic training as intensive as our children do. So if the test is on math and science, there's no doubt Chinese students will win the competition," said Sun Baohong of the Shanghai Academy of Social Sciences. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. _______________________________________________ WestNileNet mailing list MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "uk.mc297.mail.yahoo.com" claiming to be MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "uk.mc297.mail.yahoo.com" claiming to be [email protected] http://orion.kym.net/mailman/listinfo/westnilenet WestNileNet is generously hosted by INFOCOM http://www.infocom.co.ug/ All Archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ The above comments and data are owned by whoever posted them (including attachments if any). 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