Micru, thank you for the explanation. I understand better now what you mean.
I still disagree - let me explain why. I think that trying to express a query definition into a single statement is very hard. Having a specific Query namespace allows us to create a completely new UI for them, allows us to use a different data model for Queries than for items, and allows us to treat Query pages very different (e.g. for caching) than, e.g. item pages. For example, the different data model would allow us to restrict the number of queries on a page. If they were just a statement, what would stop a contributor from creating several such statements on one page? What happens when someone removes the "same as query" statement? What happens if someone adds it to the page for USA (e.g. "same as query" "instance of"->"country", "continent"->"North America", "population"->>300M)? Would this page suddenly be treated differently? Also, you already show in your mock up that the "same as query" statement requires plenty of special code (e.g. for the different visualizations, etc.) One option would be to have them as item pages, but then treat them continuously different. This would mean more and more exceptions and special casing in the code. I think that Queries and Items are sufficiently different to deserve their own treatment. In my personal opinion, this is provides sufficient reasons for Query pages and Item pages being distinct. What would be the advantage of having Queries being expressed in the Items? Less entities? Less confusion about what these "list of"- and "category"-items mean? Both reasons I don't find sufficiently enticing to change my opinion on this. Cheers, Denny On Fri Mar 07 2014 at 5:00:19 AM, David Cuenca <dacu...@gmail.com> wrote: > Denny, sorry for the confusion, it is a complex topic, or it could also be > that I am terribly bad at explaining :) > Based on that item page I have made a mock-up which perhaps makes things > easier: > http://i.imgur.com/1dSfrqx.png > > The reasoning for this being: > 1) there is a well-defined set of queries that are equivalent to > categories/lists, so there is no need to have independent query pages > 2) if a wikipedia wants to include query results on a page, it is quite > probable that the query already exists as a list/category > 3) and if it doesn't then it will be *very* specific to that language > wikipedia. In that case there is no need to define a query page on > wikidata, but on the wikipedia page itself as an inclusion syntax command > or another similar module > > You are right that it might be a bit preliminary, as there are not even > simple queries yet, but since this kind of decisions might have an impact > on later design, I think it is worth start presenting the concepts/options > now. Besides, ideas and a common understanding take time to develop, and > the RFC was started, so I thought it was worth giving it some attention. > > Cheers, > Micru > > On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 12:18 AM, Denny Vrandečić <vrande...@gmail.com>wrote: > >> Since I am obviously bad at guessing what you mean, can you please >> explicate what you mean with "replicate that functionality on Wikidata"? >> >> Sorry, I am too dense to understand it. >> >> What do you want to happen, explicitly? >> >> I go to http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q6573995 - how should it be >> different from what it displays today? >> >> Do you want the item pages to have the feature to directly embed query >> results, instead of having a one-click distance to the actual query page >> and its results? >> >> Or is there more to it? >> >> >> >> >> On Thu Mar 06 2014 at 3:10:44 PM, David Cuenca <dacu...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> I'm not saying that the results yielded by "Category:Books by Jean-Paul >>> Sartre" or "Category:Books by J.R.R. Tolkien" are or should be the same as >>> the result yielded by a corresponding Wikidata query, but the concepts they >>> represent, they are the same. Ditto for lists. >>> (As a further clarification, I didn't mention anything about changing >>> Wikipedia categories or Wikipedia lists either.) >>> >>> My question was regarding the functionality of WD items associated with >>> Wikipedia categories and Wikipedia lists. >>> Conceptually those items represent (or can represent) queries. >>> WDQ, the tool by Magnus, already can interpret certain statements as >>> queries [1]. >>> Would it make sense to replicate that functionality on Wikidata? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Micru >>> >>> [1] http://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?&q=6573995 >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 11:16 PM, Denny Vrandečić <vrande...@gmail.com>wrote: >>> >>>> But that's simply not the case. The Category:Books by Jean-Paul Sartre >>>> [1] or Category:Books by J.R.R. Tolkien [2} neither are a complete list of >>>> books by those authors (e.g. Sartre's fictional books are missing, >>>> Tolkien's non-fictional *and* Middle earth books are missing), nor are they >>>> only including books by Tolkien (e.g. they also include templates and other >>>> categories, which are likely not written by Sartre or Tolkien). >>>> >>>> If the plan is to change the way categories are used in Wikipedia and >>>> the other Wikimedia wikis, I'd say this is a very different goal, but >>>> should be discussed on those wikis. >>>> >>>> List-articles often contain much more love and care than a Wikidata >>>> query result will for a while. I don't think that replacing an article like >>>> the list of books by David Foster Wallace [3] the List of US Presidents [4] >>>> with a single simple query is a short-term goal. >>>> >>>> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Books_by_Jean-Paul_Sartre >>>> [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Books_by_J._R._R._Tolkien >>>> [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_by_David_Foster_Wallace >>>> [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_US_Presidents >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu Mar 06 2014 at 1:49:54 PM, David Cuenca <dacu...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> The point I wanted to make (following your example), is that the >>>>> Wikidata Query "All novels by Douglas Adams" is equivalent to the item >>>>> "Category:Novels by Douglas Adams" [1]. In other cases there will be even >>>>> 3 >>>>> items representing the same information: the wd query, the category item, >>>>> and a "list of..." item. So I'm just wondering if this complexity is >>>>> really >>>>> needed for structural/technical reasons. >>>>> >>>>> Maybe there is an easier way instead of linking to the wd query with a >>>>> "category's main query" property? >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Micru >>>>> >>>>> [1] https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q8687492 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 7:24 PM, Lydia Pintscher < >>>>> lydia.pintsc...@wikimedia.de> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 9:01 PM, David Cuenca <dacu...@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> > I would like to make you aware of this RFC started by Gerard: >>>>>> > >>>>>> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Requests_for_comment/Define_lists_on_both_%22Wikimedia_lists%22_and_%22Wikimedia_categories%22 >>>>>> > >>>>>> > It is interesting because in the end, what is the difference >>>>>> between a list, >>>>>> > a category, and a query? Not much, really. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > I'm curious to know if the approach taken with queries will be the >>>>>> same as >>>>>> > the WDQ >>>>>> > http://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?&q=6573995 >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Items like "List of..." or "Category:" would have some use, but the >>>>>> > development notes don't state if this is the intended path >>>>>> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata/Development/Queries >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Any thoughts about it? >>>>>> >>>>>> I've been trying to understand the RfC 3 times now and still fail. So >>>>>> I can't answer your questions unfortunately. >>>>>> >>>>>> The short and simplified version of how complex queries will work: >>>>>> * someone defines a query on a page in a special query namespace (eg >>>>>> "everything that has author = Douglas Adams") >>>>>> * the result of the query is a list of items matching the query >>>>>> * the Wikipedias can include the result of the query and visualize it >>>>>> in certain ways on a page. (eg the wikitext of the article "List of >>>>>> works by Douglas Adams" would have a call to include the query result >>>>>> from Wikidata) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers >>>>>> Lydia >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher >>>>>> Product Manager for Wikidata >>>>>> >>>>>> Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. >>>>>> Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 >>>>>> 10963 Berlin >>>>>> www.wikimedia.de >>>>>> >>>>>> Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. >>>>>> V. >>>>>> >>>>>> Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg >>>>>> unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das >>>>>> Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Wikidata-l mailing list >>>>>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Etiamsi omnes, ego non >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Wikidata-l mailing list >>>>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikidata-l mailing list >>>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Etiamsi omnes, ego non >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikidata-l mailing list >>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikidata-l mailing list >> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >> >> > > > -- > Etiamsi omnes, ego non >
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