But you know there can only be one benevolent dictator, right? On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 6:20 AM, Brian <brian.min...@colorado.edu> wrote:
> Honestly, it's important enough that the Foundation should take an > objective look at the facts and make a statement about Wikipedia's history. > > > On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 7:36 PM, Larry Sanger <sanger-li...@citizendium.org > > wrote: > >> All, >> >> Earlier today, I had no joy in trying to post this "open letter to Jimmy >> Wales" on Jimmy's own user talk page: the man himself deleted it. That is >> not the sort of behavior I would have expected of the head of an allegedly >> open, transparent community devoted to free speech. I would like >> Wikipedians in general to be apprised of my concerns. I believe they are >> serious and well-justified, and they should not be dismissed without a >> careful hearing. I do not ask that Jimmy Wales reply here on this list. >> But I do ask that "the powers that be"--including the Wikipedia community, >> the Wikimedia Board, and the media--hold Jimmy responsible for his very >> shabby behavior toward me. >> >> Let me be clear. This is not just an attempt to "tell my side of the >> story." It is me confronting Jimmy Wales publicly for lying about my >> involvement in the project after many private requests to stop. You might >> disagree with me about many things, but we need not disagree about the >> facts >> as they can be found in various Internet archives, nor about the necessity >> of keeping our leaders honest. >> >> A readable copy, with some updates, can be found here: >> >> http://blog.citizendium.org/2009/04/08/an-open-letter-to-jimmy-wales-copy/ >> >> >> http://blog.citizendium.org/2009/04/08/updates-re-open-letter-to-jimmy-wales >> / >> >> The letter itself follows. >> >> --Larry Sanger >> >> =============== >> >> Jimmy, I don't know a better place than this for an open letter to you >> [i.e., than on your user talk page on Wikipedia]. I recently read the Hot >> Press interview with you. The lies and distortions it contains are, for >> me, >> the last straw, especially after >> <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/xodp/message/1720> this came to >> light, >> in which you described yourself as "co-founder" in 2002. >> >> I've reached out to you on a couple of occasions to coordinate our >> "versions" - well, my version and your fanciful inventions - about how >> Wikipedia got started. Last year I read about a speech in which you >> represented me as being more or less opposed to Wikipedia from the start - >> despite it being my own baby, really - and I wrote to you saying that if >> you >> keep this up, I will speak out. Well, I'm finally speaking out. >> >> In Wikipedia's first three years, it was clear to everyone working on it >> that not only had I named the project, I came up with and promoted the >> idea >> of making a wiki encyclopedia, wrote the first policy pages and many more >> policy pages in the following year, led the project, and enforced many >> rules >> that are now taken for granted. I came up with a lot of stuff that is >> regarded as standard operating procedure. For instance, I argued that talk >> should go on talk pages and got people into that habit. Similarly, after >> meta-discussion started taking up so much of Wikipedia's time and energy, >> I >> shepherded talk about the project to meta.wikipedia.org - and after that, >> to >> Wikipedia-L and WikiEN-L. I insisted that we were working on an >> encyclopedia, not on the many other things one can use a wiki for. I came >> up >> with the name "Wikipedian" and other Wikipedia jargon. I had devised a >> neutrality policy for Nupedia, and I elaborated it in a form that stood >> for >> several years on Wikipedia. I did a lot of explaining and evangelizing for >> Wikipedia - what it is about, why we are here, and so forth - for example, >> in <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Our_Replies_to_Our_Critics%22 >> > >> Wikipedia:Our Replies to Our Critics and a couple of well-known posts on >> kuro5hin.org <http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2001/7/25/103136/121> like >> this >> one and <http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2001/9/24/43858/2479> this. I >> also >> recall introducing many specific policy details, the evidence for which is >> in archives (such as on archive.org) and no doubt in the memories of some >> of >> the more active early Wikipedians. >> >> These are only some examples of ways in which I led the project in its >> first >> 14 months; after I left, there was a lot of soul-searching in the project >> about what would happen now that it was "leaderless" (see the quotations >> linked from <http://www.larrysanger.org/roleinwp.html> this page). When >> I >> was involved in the project, I was regarded as its chief organizer. As you >> can still see in the archives, I called myself "Chief Instigator" and >> "Chief >> Organizer" and the like (not editor). >> >> I also want to correct you on something that tends to harm me: your >> repeated >> insinuations that I was "fired." In the Hot Press interview, you said I >> left >> Wikipedia because you "didn't want to pay him any more." You know - and so >> does everyone else who worked at Bomis, Inc., around a dozen people - that >> at the end of 2001, you had to go back to Bomis' original 4-5 employees, >> because of the tech market bust, when Bomis suddenly lost a million-dollar >> ad deal. Tim Shell told me I was the last person to be laid off. He told >> me >> - the day I arrived back from my honeymoon, as I recall - that I should >> probably start looking for new work, because of the market. I was made to >> believe, and always did until a few years ago when you started implying >> otherwise, that I had been laid off just like all the other Bomis >> employees. >> >> In those first three years, Wikipedia did three press releases, in which >> we >> are both given credit as founders of the project. I >> < >> http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%27s_first_press_relea >> se> drafted the first press release in January 2002; you read and approved >> it before posting it on the wires. Moreover, you must have read the many >> early news articles that called us both founders. You could have >> complained >> then - when you were CEO of the company that paid my paycheck. But you >> didn't. In fact, you called yourself "co-founder" from time to time. >> Evidence of this has surfaced in the form of >> <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/xodp/message/1720> this post to xodp >> in >> which you begin, "Hello, let me introduce myself. I'm Jimmy Wales, >> co-founder of Nupedia and Wikipedia, the open content encyclopedias." >> While >> your company supplied the funding and you supplied some guidance, I >> supplied >> the main leadership of the early project. This is why Wikipedia's second >> press release also called me "founder," in 2003 - just after I broke >> permanently with you and the Wikipedia community - and the Wikimedia >> Foundation's first press release described me the same way, in early 2004. >> >> I had nothing to do with the second and third press releases, and, as >> Bomis >> CEO and Wikimedia Chair, you approved all three. But now read what you >> told >> Hot Press recently. The interviewer asked: "Sanger said that proof of his >> being co-founder is on the initial press releases. Are you saying that he >> basically just put himself down as co-founder on these press releases?" >> You >> answered "Yes." How could I "put myself down as co-founder" in 2003 and >> 2004, when I wasn't even part of the organization? This is an attempt to >> buff your reputation while making me look like a liar - but your simple >> "Yes" answer can be refuted with >> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Press_releases/January_2002> a >> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Press_releases/January_2003> few >> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Press_releases/February_2004> >> URLs; >> you were a contact on all three press releases. >> >> Beginning in 2004, you began leaving me out of the story of Wikipedia's >> origin. You began implying, to reporters, that you had done a lot of the >> sort of work that, in fact, you hired me to do. You have even implied that >> I >> was opposed to various ideas that were crucial to Wikipedia's popular >> success - when those were, for all intents and purposes, my own ideas. A >> good example is Daniel Pink's >> <http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.03/wiki.html> article for Wired >> Magazine - in which you implied that I had little or nothing to do with >> Wikipedia. >> >> You still do this. You told the Hot Press interviewer, "Larry was never >> comfortable with the open-editing model of Wikipedia and he very early on >> wanted to start locking things down and giving certain people special >> authority - you know, recruit experts to supervise certain areas of the >> encyclopaedia and things like that." This is a lie. I was perfectly >> comfortable with the "open-editing model of Wikipedia." After all, that >> was >> my idea. I did not want to "start locking things down" - or to "recruit >> experts to supervise certain areas of the encyclopaedia." I challenge >> anyone >> to find any evidence in the archive that I did any such thing. For my >> early >> attitude toward expert involvement, see >> <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Deferring_to_the_experts> this column, >> written a year after the project started. Besides, your claim doesn't make >> sense. Even after a year, I was hoping that a revitalized Nupedia would >> work >> in tandem with Wikipedia as its vetting service. Though you increasingly >> disliked Nupedia as Wikipedia's star rose, it was always my assumption >> that >> you felt the same way about at least the potential of the two projects >> working together. >> >> It was one thing, in 2004, to leave me out of the story of Wikipedia. It >> was >> another to assert in 2005, (1) for >> <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2005-April/021452.html> >> the very first time, that >> <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2005-April/021446.html> >> somebody else had the idea for the project, contrary to >> < >> http://web.archive.org/web/20010406101346/www.wikipedia.com/wiki/Wikipedia_ >> FAQ> what had been on the books since 2001, or (2) that I am not >> co-founder >> of the project. But in both cases, people scanning the Wikipedia-L mailing >> list archives found old mails in which you contradicted yourself. >> < >> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2001-October/000671.html >> > >> One embarrassing mail has you giving me credit - as, of course, I always >> had >> been given credit - for the idea of Wikipedia, and >> <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/xodp/message/1720> another >> embarrassing >> mail surfaced just a few days ago in which you called yourself >> "co-founder" >> of Wikipedia. >> >> I find your behavior since 2004 transparently self-serving, considering >> that >> this rewriting of history began in 2004, just as Wikia.com was getting >> started, and you started promoting your reputation as the brains behind >> Wikipedia. There is a long "paper trail" establishing virtually all of my >> claims about Wikipedia, and which refute your various attempts to rewrite >> history. >> >> I have not publicly confronted you about this before, to this extent. >> Public >> controversies are emotionally wrenching and time-consuming. I know I might >> be (verbally) attacked more viciously than ever by your fans and >> Wikipedia's. (To them, I just point out that Wikipedia is bigger than >> Jimmy >> Wales.) I have mainly limited myself to answering reporters' questions - >> keeping my more harshly-worded statements off the record - and to >> <http://www.larrysanger.org/roleinwp.html> this page on my personal site. >> Occasionally I couldn't help objecting to some particularly outrageous >> claim, but I never went all out. >> >> I thought that the evidence against your claims about me would shame you >> into changing your behavior. But, five years since you started >> misrepresenting my role in the founding of Wikipedia, you're still at it. >> >> I have been content to watch you reap the rewards of the project I started >> for you, largely without comment. You (with Tim Shell and Michael Davis, >> the >> Bomis partners) did, after all, sponsor the project. After leaving >> Wikipedia, I went back to academia and, after that, worked for a >> succession >> of nonprofit projects - these days, <http://www.citizendium.org/> >> Citizendium.org and now also <http://www.watchknow.org/> WatchKnow.org. >> I >> have not tried to cash in on my own reputation. I have been approached by >> a >> number of venture capitalists, entrepreneurs, and publishers and have >> always >> told them that I have my own plans. If I had wanted to cash in myself, I >> wouldn't have moved away from Silicon Valley back to Ohio, as I did, in >> order to lower my costs in supporting the non-profit projects which I've >> made my life's work. >> >> The Hot Press interview is the straw that broke this camel's back. I >> resent >> being the victim of another person's self-serving lies. Besides, I don't >> want to set a poor example in my failure to defend myself. >> >> Please don't say I'm making mountains out of molehills. When you go out of >> your way to edit Wikipedia articles to >> < >> http://workbench.cadenhead.org/news/2828/wikipedia-founder-looks-out-number >> -1<http://workbench.cadenhead.org/news/2828/wikipedia-founder-looks-out-number%0A-1>> >> remove the fact that I am a co-founder, or >> <http://www.wikitruth.info/index.php?title=Jimbo_Found_Out> ask others to >> do >> so, I don't call that correcting "very simple errors," as you told Hot >> Press. What angers me is not any one error, but the accumulated weight of >> your lies about me - I've mentioned only a few of them here. >> >> Finally, you might protest that you have said, several times, that I am >> not >> credited enough. For example, you told Hot Press: >> >> I feel that Larry's work is often under-appreciated. He really did a lot >> in >> the first year to think through editorial policy. . I would actually love >> to >> have it on the record that I said: I think Larry's work should be more >> appreciated. He's a really brilliant guy. >> >> This sounds like a fine sentiment. But how could it be sincere? What >> better >> way to ensure that I am "under-appreciated" than to contradict your own >> first three press releases and tell the Boston Globe, just two years >> later, >> that it's "preposterous" that I am called co-founder? >> >> I have two further requests, not of you, but of those who deal with you: >> the >> Wikimedia Foundation and reporters. >> >> First, I ask the Board of the Wikimedia Foundation to reiterate the >> Foundation's original position (as expressed in its >> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Press_releases/February_2004> >> first >> press release) that we are both, in fact, founders of Wikipedia. (I note >> that the author of the recent history of Wikipedia, Andrew "fuzheado" Lih, >> was >> < >> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Press_releases/February >> _2004&action=history<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Press_releases/February%0A_2004&action=history>> >> among the authors and contacts for this press >> release.) If the Foundation is unwilling, I request an explanation why its >> corporate view has changed. Is it simply because Jimmy Wales has made his >> wishes known and you enforce them? >> >> Second, I request any reporter who interviews you about the early history >> of >> Wikipedia and Nupedia to interview me as well, so I can correct anything >> misleading. They should know that there are many details in my 2005 >> <http://features.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/18/164213&tid=95> >> memoir >> of Nupedia and Wikipedia, and my story has never varied. I would also >> appreciate it if a reporter were to inquire about my request, above, to >> the >> Board of the Wikimedia Foundation. >> >> Larry Sanger (san...@citizendium.org) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> WikiEN-l mailing list >> WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l >> > > _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l