Hi all, while I appreciate the efforts of providing examples, I don't think we need to dig deep into negative claims about previous competitions. This risks going to the level of gossip-speculation (you're explaining your own interpretation of what happened) and potentially harms individuals who are being accused in a public forum without form of recourse or decent process.
Paulo: please stop sharing your views on this example on this list. I don't think it helps the discussion at this point. Thank you. Lodewijk On Sat, Oct 3, 2020 at 9:41 AM Yaroslav Blanter <ymb...@gmail.com> wrote: > Well, sounds like a horror story. I would personally never agree to get > monetary reimbursement for participating in a WLM or a WLE jury. > > Best regards > Yaroslav > > On Sat, Oct 3, 2020 at 6:19 PM Paulo Santos Perneta < > paulospern...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hey Yaroslav, >> >> It is (was) quite easy, actually. Referring to the specific case I >> mentioned: >> >> >> - The organizer (who was an ex-WMF staff and member of the >> international WLE team) was being paid by WMF to locally organize WL >> contests; >> - The organizer was not transparent about this towards the community, >> coaching and engaging members of the wiki community, who, in the belief it >> was an all volunteer effort, would do his own work for free and greatly >> help him fulfill his objectives; >> - The organizer decided in a totally closed process who would be the >> winners - these routinely included offwiki friends of the organizer; >> - The jury, who allegedly participated in that closed selection >> process, was also paid. Again, this jury routinely included offwiki >> friends >> of the organizer; >> - On at least one occasion, an exhibition place was rented by a very >> expensive amount, which was never satisfactorily explained. Other costs >> were also apparently overfactured. >> >> This was back in 2016. I don't believe it still works that way, >> thankfully. >> >> Best, >> Paulo >> >> >> >> Yaroslav Blanter <ymb...@gmail.com> escreveu no dia sábado, 3/10/2020 >> à(s) 16:38: >> >>> Hi Paulo, >>> >>> I have difficulties parsing your post. For Russia, after we had serious >>> issues with Wikimedia.ru (who, for example, at some point wanted to >>> interfere with the decisions of the jury) we converged to symbolic prizes >>> which we essentially buy out of our own pocket and send them using our own >>> money (things like mugs). We (a group of self-selected people) are doing >>> everything on our own and we are not using any funding. I do not quite see >>> how we could misuse the competition, even if we wanted to. >>> >>> Best >>> Yaroslav >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 3, 2020 at 4:22 PM Paulo Santos Perneta < >>> paulospern...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Forgot to say, but I'm one of the organizers of WLM for WM Portugal. >>>> >>>> As for corruption, I must say back in 2016 or around it I was contacted >>>> offwiki on Facebook by a WLE/WLM organizer, enticing me to organize WL in >>>> Portugal, and teaching how to milk the cow. That's how bad the situation >>>> was. I'm glad things have changed since then. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Paulo >>>> >>>> >>>> Paulo Santos Perneta <paulospern...@gmail.com> escreveu no dia sábado, >>>> 3/10/2020 à(s) 15:12: >>>> >>>>> Hello, >>>>> >>>>> In WLM since 2019 we are totally transparent about the jury members >>>>> that help on montage, and usually thank them for their precious help at >>>>> our >>>>> blog post about the competition. Since last year, we have been exchanging >>>>> jurors with Tuscany and Wiki Classics, and had a lot of help from Brazil. >>>>> This year we are also exchanging jurors with Brazil. I must say it's a >>>>> total PIA to find jurors for this kind of competition, so we generally >>>>> gave >>>>> up with finding professional photographers (which had a lot of trouble to >>>>> engage with the technical part of this, anyway) and are doing this with >>>>> Commoners, Wikipedians and punctually with "outsiders", which may be >>>>> photographers or not - could be data journalists, ppl from the academia, >>>>> etc. - to experiment. A global bank of jurors would be a precious asset. >>>>> >>>>> After the last round in montage, the organizers do the final >>>>> selection, using the montage results as a starting point. This is to avoid >>>>> repetitions, bad quality photos, previously undetected copyvios, out of >>>>> scope photos, and so on. >>>>> >>>>> I absolutely support transparency in the selection process, especially >>>>> given past situations where corruption, game of marked cards and schemes >>>>> to >>>>> get $$ out of WL competitions were at least apparent - As long as it does >>>>> not hinder the selection process, and does not create additional >>>>> bureaucracy. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Paulo >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> effe iets anders <effeietsand...@gmail.com> escreveu no dia quarta, >>>>> 30/09/2020 à(s) 23:49: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> After getting feedback both on- and offlist, we arrived at the >>>>>> following: the Montage developers will make a page available to each jury >>>>>> coordinator, that they can copy and paste to a wiki page to share their >>>>>> process settings easily. That way it's easy to be transparent. At some >>>>>> point in the future, we will likely make this public by default. >>>>>> >>>>>> I do express the expectation that each national coordinator will >>>>>> publish their jury members (either real life name or username). It may >>>>>> well >>>>>> be that we ask you to submit this list of jurors when you submit your >>>>>> nominees (although we will not publish it on your behalf, that is your >>>>>> responsibility). >>>>>> >>>>>> Warmly, >>>>>> Lodewijk >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 11:01 PM effe iets anders < >>>>>> effeietsand...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> All great suggestions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In the past the WLM international team has also maintained a >>>>>>> database of jurors to be backup. We had very little requests in recent >>>>>>> years though, probably because so many people know organizers form other >>>>>>> countries. If you're stuck, I would suggest to either ask someone you >>>>>>> already know, or to ask this list. Most likely you have a response >>>>>>> within >>>>>>> 48h. But don't wait until the last minute, if you can avoid it. Jurors >>>>>>> typically like a week to get things done (if the country isn't huge). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Lodewijk >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 3:48 AM Rebecca O'Neill < >>>>>>> rebeccanin...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thank you Yaroslav, I will send you a separate email now! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Having the WLE team setting up a pool of jurors like that was so >>>>>>>> helpful Anton. Yes, I could find the names and email other WLM >>>>>>>> organisers, >>>>>>>> but this system took that extra work away from me - which was hugely >>>>>>>> appreciated, especially in our first year! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, 3 Sep 2020 at 11:45, Anton Protsiuk < >>>>>>>> anton.prots...@wikimedia.org.ua> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The international WLE team this year has tried to create a >>>>>>>>> database of jurors from different countries for local contests. We >>>>>>>>> had a >>>>>>>>> Google form for these purposes ( >>>>>>>>> https://forms.gle/Pj61adjgYiE6Jn687) & asked local teams whether >>>>>>>>> they needed help with jury. >>>>>>>>> We haven't estimated the results yet, since the local selection >>>>>>>>> process is still ongoing, but it seems to have worked well. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Best Regards >>>>>>>>> Anton Protsiuk >>>>>>>>> Project Manager at Wikimedia Ukraine >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 11:05 AM Yaroslav Blanter <ymb...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> If WLM Ireland is in September I can help as a juror. If it is in >>>>>>>>>> October this could be more difficult because I am also in the jury >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> Russia, and there is typically a lot of work there. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Generally, asking around (may be also on Commons) typically >>>>>>>>>> helps. In the past I have been on jury for a few different countries. >>>>>>>>>> Somebody would just approach me and ask.If I can make it, I agree. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Yaroslav >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 9:50 AM Mārtiņš Bruņenieks < >>>>>>>>>> marti...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi, Rebecca! >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I have organized multiple WLM/WLE editions in Latvia. We have >>>>>>>>>>> used Montage in most of them. >>>>>>>>>>> After experiencing problems with jurors dropping out or being >>>>>>>>>>> known at the last moment, we created new Wikimedia accounts just >>>>>>>>>>> for the >>>>>>>>>>> jury and sent the passwords to them. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Montage allows some editing of jurors after the round has >>>>>>>>>>> started but results can be unexpected. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Mārtiņš >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 2:13 AM Rebecca O'Neill < >>>>>>>>>>> rebeccanin...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Lodewijk, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> As a slight aside to this, and perhaps something that might >>>>>>>>>>>> help ease some of the worries around judging processes in other >>>>>>>>>>>> countries, >>>>>>>>>>>> would it be an idea to have a pool of international WLM Wikimedia >>>>>>>>>>>> jurors >>>>>>>>>>>> that could help judge other countries? Here in Ireland we have >>>>>>>>>>>> done this >>>>>>>>>>>> with Malta, exchanging jurors over the past few years, and for our >>>>>>>>>>>> first >>>>>>>>>>>> WLE this year we had Axel from Sweden be on our jury. You get the >>>>>>>>>>>> benefit of a fellow Wikimedian who understands the whole process, >>>>>>>>>>>> and who >>>>>>>>>>>> could bring some different expertise or perspective to a country's >>>>>>>>>>>> WLM. >>>>>>>>>>>> Having someone who is completely unfamiliar with your local built >>>>>>>>>>>> heritage >>>>>>>>>>>> means they can assess the images with a different take than >>>>>>>>>>>> someone who >>>>>>>>>>>> knows them very well. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> After 6 years, we have found it harder to recruit a jury from >>>>>>>>>>>> our pool of active Wikimedians and relevant expert judges from the >>>>>>>>>>>> arts and >>>>>>>>>>>> architecture sectors in Ireland. I know I would really appreciate >>>>>>>>>>>> it if we >>>>>>>>>>>> could "borrow" a juror from another Wikimedia group (in the past >>>>>>>>>>>> we have >>>>>>>>>>>> had some UK help with this too with jurors). We have suffered from >>>>>>>>>>>> jurors >>>>>>>>>>>> dropping out of the process at the last minute or after judging >>>>>>>>>>>> has begun >>>>>>>>>>>> (which results in having to restart rounds in Montage), generally >>>>>>>>>>>> it has >>>>>>>>>>>> been those who are not Wikimedians who perhaps did not fully >>>>>>>>>>>> understand the >>>>>>>>>>>> commitment when they agreed. Not only is it frustrating, it's very >>>>>>>>>>>> stressful. It may be less of an issue this year, given that the >>>>>>>>>>>> deadline >>>>>>>>>>>> for submitting to the international jury won't be at the end of >>>>>>>>>>>> October. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hope that helps clarify some of the issues some of the smaller >>>>>>>>>>>> countries can face over the years of WLM! >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>>> Rebecca >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 2 Sep 2020 at 23:57, effe iets anders < >>>>>>>>>>>> effeietsand...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Alexander, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> As for the status of Montage requests: I suggest that you >>>>>>>>>>>>> start a separate thread on that, and would like to leave this to >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> maintainers to respond to. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> As for publishing the settings: I was imagining some kind of >>>>>>>>>>>>> log-style publication, not a near write-up. This won't be pretty, >>>>>>>>>>>>> but it >>>>>>>>>>>>> will allow people to figure out how it worked out in practice. If >>>>>>>>>>>>> we follow >>>>>>>>>>>>> a logical naming convention, people should be able to puzzle it >>>>>>>>>>>>> together. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ideally, the national organizers also publish their process on >>>>>>>>>>>>> the website, >>>>>>>>>>>>> but this log would be a way to verify that. But I accept your >>>>>>>>>>>>> note that we >>>>>>>>>>>>> may need to add a context explaining that more process may happen >>>>>>>>>>>>> before/after this tool is used. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Lodewijk >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 3:17 PM Alexander Tsirlin < >>>>>>>>>>>>> altsir...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear Lodewijk, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> We also intend to publish by default the settings of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> montage jury tool, and the number of photos in each round that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the national >>>>>>>>>>>>>> competitions have used. We're debating whether there should be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> an opt-out >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for this year. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is unrealistic, because jury process may involve several >>>>>>>>>>>>>> campaigns that are later merged together (in Russia, we do it >>>>>>>>>>>>>> all the time >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in order to meet your submission deadline). Moreover, some of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the photos >>>>>>>>>>>>>> can be accepted for the next round within Montage but excluded >>>>>>>>>>>>>> later on if >>>>>>>>>>>>>> we find that they do not depict cultural heritage. The end >>>>>>>>>>>>>> result is that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> any number you take from Montage will not match the number of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> photos that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> we publish (e.g., as a short-list). This will only lead to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> confusion and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> won't be of any use for anyone. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since you mentioned Montage, let me also ask when two >>>>>>>>>>>>>> important pull requests, which were done by one of our team >>>>>>>>>>>>>> members, are >>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to be merged into the code: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/hatnote/montage/pull/169 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/hatnote/montage/pull/175 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> These are really, really important fixes. Without them I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> would have a problem creating new Montage campaigns in October. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alexander >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/2/2020 11:49 PM, effe iets anders wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> over the past years, we have had various requests to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> encourage national organizers to be transparent in their judging >>>>>>>>>>>>>> processes >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and who sits on their jury. Most of the national organizers are >>>>>>>>>>>>>> currently >>>>>>>>>>>>>> transparent about this already. In the past weeks/month, more >>>>>>>>>>>>>> conversation >>>>>>>>>>>>>> around this has continued with some concerns (valid or not) on >>>>>>>>>>>>>> certain jury >>>>>>>>>>>>>> processes. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> In this light, the international team intends to institute a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> new expectation for national organizers, namely to publish the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> members of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> their jury (be it their username or real life name) at some >>>>>>>>>>>>>> point. We have >>>>>>>>>>>>>> not figured out the practical details yet, but I can imagine >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that while we >>>>>>>>>>>>>> encourage publication on the website, we would ask national >>>>>>>>>>>>>> organizers to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> add a list of jury members to their submission to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> international jury - >>>>>>>>>>>>>> which we then will publish as well. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> We also intend to publish by default the settings of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> montage jury tool, and the number of photos in each round that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the national >>>>>>>>>>>>>> competitions have used. We're debating whether there should be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> an opt-out >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for this year. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> We will of course apply at least the same level of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> transparency to the international jury. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Before we make this decision, I would like to ask for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback on this, and whether there are edge cases we should >>>>>>>>>>>>>> consider where >>>>>>>>>>>>>> such transparency would be harmful. I'll take 1 week to gather >>>>>>>>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback on this, and then we'll make a final decision. You can >>>>>>>>>>>>>> respond to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> this on this mailing list, or privately to me. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Warmly, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lodewijk >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing >>>>>>>>>>>>>> listWikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.orghttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonumentshttp://www.wikilovesmonuments.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> PhD in Digital Media >>>>>>>>>>>> Project Coordinator Wikimedia Community Ireland >>>>>>>>>>>> <http://wikimedia.ie> >>>>>>>>>>>> She/Her >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list >>>>>>>>>> WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments >>>>>>>>>> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list >>>>>>>>> WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments >>>>>>>>> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> PhD in Digital Media >>>>>>>> Project Coordinator Wikimedia Community Ireland >>>>>>>> <http://wikimedia.ie> >>>>>>>> She/Her >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list >>>>>>>> WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments >>>>>>>> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list >>>>>> WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments >>>>>> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list >>>> WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments >>>> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list >>> WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments >>> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list >> WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments >> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org >> > _______________________________________________ > Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list > WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments > http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org >
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