Gerard, Yes you are being offensive. You are deliberately painting a picture that somehow Pax, myself and others are attempting to make out that safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians is more important than safety of Women Wikimedians or the safety of Muslim Wikimedians. The only person doing that is you.
You did the same thing on the 18th of October and it was pointed out to you that this was unacceptable, yet you are continuing to repeat it. Stop doing it, it is a lie, and the only person spreading it is you. Go back and read Pax's original post of 16th October which was positive about the Wikimania experience. Fae On 10 November 2016 at 06:57, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijs...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hoi, > The notion of offence is one where you take it where there is none > certainly no offence is intended. > > When you consider Wikimanias past, we have been to places where there is a > "risk". Arguably there has been a risk in going to other countries in the > past. When you consider the events themselves, as a group, we have been > rather isolated in our conference. Many people were exhausted of the > proceedings. Others went partying and came to the conference when they felt > up to it. > > This whole notion of security has been high jacked by LGBT concerns. Let me > say that they are real. It would however be a travesty to say that they are > the only ones singled out for problems. Ask yourself, how many women > wearing a veil were there at the last Wikimania and at the one before. > Consider the stories about people, third generation Dutch, who are mistaken > for refugees and not safe in the streets of the place where I live. Stories > about not standing close to the gap at a railway station because ... They > are as much a reality, they are as real. > > So you may find it offensive and it is. People are not safe. But when that > stops us from talking about it, when it can not be said that security is > only one concern and not the most dominant one then I take offence. It > means that we can no longer exchange opinions. It means that we are only > concerned with our own narrow interest losing the big picture. > > So Fae, take it from me. You are wrong to call me out for being > disrespectful. By calling me out in this way you elevate your opinion and > put me down. Security is a concern but when fear is exchanged for prudence, > we will remove the one reason why we have Wikimania in the first place as a > worldwide conference. It is to go out and show the world who we are and > what we have to offer. > > When this is the prevailing opinion of our movement it does hardly matter > that we have Wikipedias in over 280 languages because English and its > culture is the only Wikipedia that counts. Now that is effectively an > existing prejudice that is dominated in much of what I observe we do. It is > another argument people feel offended. But hey most of you do not see it > this way because "things trickle down".. As an economic measure it failed > and it is how we ignore the major cultural differences that exist. > > Wikimania is not relevant when we do not go out and mingle world wide. When > we do not accept the differences that exist and make it our strength. > Thanks, > GerardM > > > On 9 November 2016 at 18:28, Fæ <fae...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Gerard, >> >> You have posted several emails on the subject which read as >> disrespectful, can cause offence and discourage LGBT+ contributors to >> this list who may have otherwise openly expressed views. The line of >> argument that LGBT+ Wikimedians must expect to be at personal risk >> just to attend a Wikimania is repugnant to me, and is likely to be for >> a majority of other readers. This point of view runs counter to the >> values of the WMF or recognized affiliates. >> >> If you wish to develop a better understanding of how the basic safety >> of all attendees at future Wikimanias and other conferences should be >> a priority, this may be better done on-wiki rather than repeating your >> points on this list. >> >> I warmly recommend a reality check with friends off-list as to what >> might be read as offensive, should you wish to continue posting >> further emails about this particular topic. >> >> Thanks, >> Fae >> >> On 9 November 2016 at 16:43, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijs...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> > Hoi, >> > What is the point. When not even the USA is "safe", we have to be >> > realistic. Wikimania is about propaganda for what we do. We have to >> travel >> > and selecting a place is not about you, it is about them. It is about the >> > people we aim to serve. >> > >> > I made my point before, it did not get any attention then and my argument >> > now is that nothing changed. It is only the perception of the USA that >> has >> > been dented by an unfortunate "democratic" choice by last night's >> election. >> > Thanks, >> > GerardM >> > >> > On 9 November 2016 at 17:27, Pax Ahimsa Gethen < >> list-wikime...@funcrunch.org >> >> wrote: >> > >> >> Gerard, as a queer black trans person who feels unsafe even in San >> >> Francisco (and has felt that way for years), I would really appreciate >> you >> >> not pushing last night's election results in my face to make a point. >> >> >> >> - Pax >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 11/9/16 8:24 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote: >> >> >> >>> Hoi, >> >>> Do you blame me for not feeling safe going to the USA? >> >>> Thanks, >> >>> GerardM >> >>> >> >>> On 8 November 2016 at 11:08, Gerard Meijssen < >> gerard.meijs...@gmail.com> >> >>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Hoi, >> >>>> Not going to North Corolina is absolutely fine with me. We do not gain >> >>>> anything by going there arguably not to any state in the United >> States. >> >>>> What Wikimania is, is a platform for propaganda for what we have, >> what we >> >>>> do, who we are and how we do what we do. In many countries Wikipedia >> is >> >>>> not >> >>>> the house hold name it is in the USA. >> >>>> >> >>>> Wikimania is not aimed for the English Wikipedia, it is aimed to >> further >> >>>> our movement. Not going to places is similar to saying that those >> other >> >>>> people, speaking other languages, with an other culture do not matter. >> >>>> They >> >>>> do. >> >>>> >> >>>> We should go to Russia, India, South Africa, China. The people of >> those >> >>>> countries should matter to us, the people we could share the sum of >> all >> >>>> knowledge with. >> >>>> >> >>>> THAT is what we do, sharing the sum of all knowledge. >> >>>> >> >>>> When the choice of the venue is only about being safe, we should not >> go >> >>>> to >> >>>> the USA (I do not feel safe there), we should go to Germany, to >> >>>> Switzerland >> >>>> and move the office as well. It is not likely to happen, not what I >> want >> >>>> either. >> >>>> >> >>>> If there is one thing about LBGT, it is that that struggle is still >> being >> >>>> fought. Hiding and keeping away does not work. It does not help the >> LBGT >> >>>> community. More importantly in this context it does not help the >> >>>> Wikimedia >> >>>> community. For the latter it is vital to make our message heard.We >> aim to >> >>>> share the sum of all knowledge and many people have not even heard of >> us. >> >>>> Thank, >> >>>> GerardM >> >>>> >> >>>> On 18 October 2016 at 16:00, Pax Ahimsa Gethen < >> >>>> list-wikime...@funcrunch.org> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> Gerard, this isn't about "holiday destinations", it's about human >> rights >> >>>>> and dignity. That's why I emphasized in my original post that I'm >> >>>>> concerned >> >>>>> not only about the safety of conference attendees, but also about >> those >> >>>>> living in the host country. The choice of a venue in a location with >> a >> >>>>> poor >> >>>>> human rights record reflects poorly upon Wikipedia/Wikimedia and our >> >>>>> mission to share knowledge. There's a reason a number of major >> companies >> >>>>> pulled their events and funding out of North Carolina after the >> >>>>> restrictive >> >>>>> restroom laws were passed for example... >> >>>>> >> >>>>> - Pax >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On 10/18/16 6:26 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Hoi, >> >>>>>> For me safety is to a large extend secondary to what we aim to >> achieve. >> >>>>>> Our >> >>>>>> primary goal is to improve on our primary goal and it is "sharing in >> >>>>>> the >> >>>>>> sum of all knowledge". It is not for going to the perfect holiday >> >>>>>> destination. >> >>>>>> Thanks, >> >>>>>> GerardM >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 13:56, Fæ <fae...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Gerard, could you provide some tangible examples of how other safety >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> aspects of Wikimania would be compromised if there is any specific >> >>>>>>> attention paid to the safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians? I cannot imagine >> >>>>>>> how such a thing could be true. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Based on my reading, nobody in this thread has asked for the >> safety of >> >>>>>>> LGBT+ attendees to be "prioritized" over other safety aspects. >> Please >> >>>>>>> don't make it appear as if they have. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Thanks, >> >>>>>>> Fae >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 11:42, Gerard Meijssen < >> >>>>>>> gerard.meijs...@gmail.com >> >>>>>>> wrote: >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Hoi, >> >>>>>>>> I do care that everybody can come to places where they are safe. >> All >> >>>>>>>> the >> >>>>>>>> specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels >> >>>>>>>> problematic >> >>>>>>>> when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big picture >> >>>>>>>> for >> >>>>>>>> me >> >>>>>>>> is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia and what >> it >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> stands >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China to >> India >> >>>>>>>> to >> >>>>>>>> South Africa. >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> -- >> >>>>>>> fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >> -- -- fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
