Hoi,
Right. I agree. It is vital for us to have a safe space where we have our
conference. When we assess a place we should indeed do a risk assessment.
This risk assessment is for all of us. It means that we have to be safe to
do our thing at the conference, we have to be safe at our digs, we have to
be safe to party when we go (together) out and party and obviously we have
to go travel safely to and from the air port.
Every country knows about conferences and it is reasonable to talk with
them before the conference is held. Countries do want conferences and
typically it is possible to find a framework where everybody attending can
safely do what is part of a conference program.
Greg, LGBT gets a lot of attention and I have no problem with that; it has
been a considerable move forward. As you say, they are not the only group
who are stigmatised. They are not the only group that have to consider
their behaviour when they travel, when they live where they live. USA is in
turmoil. But it is for the USA to allow for it to be what it is. Mr Clinton
was almost impeached because of Mrs Lewinsky.. Mr Trump is far more likely
to get off the rails given his history. The point of the USA is that it has
to be assessed in the same way as all other countries and to be honest,
many people feel extremely anxious going there. That is not a reason not to
go, but it is vital that the USA is treated no different from other
countries. It is vital that everyone understands that when he is a guest in
a country, he has to appreciate where he is. Be advised that according to
Amnesty International no police force in the USA abides by the
international agreed rules the USA signed up for. There are known police
forces that are violently different from those agreements.
The point is, we should not let fear guide us, we should be prudent in all
risk assessments and indeed everyone should be able to attend. In the past
we have been to countries where this has not been the case. So take that as
a precedent. We need to come together but it is not only about LGBT it is
also about LGBT.
Thanks,
GerardM
On 11 November 2016 at 04:10, Gregory Varnum <gregory.var...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> I wanted to take off my Wikimedia Foundation hat for a moment and offer
> some thoughts as a fellow volunteer.
>
> Without feeling physically/emotionally/mentally safe and free from
> prosecutorial persecution, it is nearly impossible to actively engage.
> Therefore, no goals can be achieved if creating a safe space is not a
> consideration.
>
> I mention prosecutorial persecution because the discussion thus far seems
> to have focused on citizen based peer violence. The problem is that for
> many communities, in this case the LGBT community, there are many other
> elements involved as well. Holding Wikimania in a country where simply
> being LGBT is a crime presents more than just a physical safety risk, it
> presents the threat of prison or death sentence. There are additional risks
> that LGBT people would take by being in that country even if we were
> absolutely confident the police were going to stay away. For example, if a
> LGBT person travels to a country where it is illegal, against the advice of
> their government, their health insurance may not be willing to help them
> should something happen (even if what happens has nothing to do with the
> laws criminalizing LGBT people). Again, these risks and situations apply to
> other communities as well, I am simply using this as an example.
>
> Also, having engaged in conversations like this professionally for over a
> decade, I want to encourage us to avoid ranking or comparing people's
> experiences. The reality is that when you are the victim of discrimination,
> harassment, or violence, that someone else may have had it worse than you
> is not an especially helpful or even relevant factor. Additionally, it
> cannot really be proven (facts matter), and more importantly here - does
> not encourage productive dialogue.
>
> I believe this is an important discussion to be having, and I am pleased to
> see people engaging in it. However, I think it is important that we
> accurately convey the scope of the topic, and avoid emotional triggers that
> will derail dialogue. Given the emotional level for many, especially in the
> US, following the election - I would also encourage people to consider
> pausing and allowing things to calm down before re-engaging.
>
> -greg (User:Varnent)
>
> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 6:41 PM Gnangarra <gnanga...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > "Foreigners" are at an increased risk regardless of where they travel
> thats
> > the reality of international travel, additionally each persons individual
> > circumstances will affect those risks. What we shouldnt be doing is
> > engaging in a contest as to whos circumstances gives them the greater
> risk
> > and thus a greater value as a contributor. Sitting at a keyboard
> improving
> > content we are all equals everyone is important.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 10 November 2016 at 23:40, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <
> > list-wikime...@funcrunch.org> wrote:
> >
> > > It is correct I have yet to attend a Wikimania conference, but was
> > > planning to after my positive experience presenting at WikiConference
> > North
> > > America.
> > >
> > > Please note the "Muslim" and "LGBT" are not mutually exclusive. Same
> with
> > > any other marginalized groups you might name.
> > >
> > > FYI my preferred pronoun is "they" not "he".
> > >
> > > To clarify what it is I actually asked, here is a copy of my original
> > post:
> > >
> > > Hello all. I had a positive experience at WikiConference North America
> > >> last weekend, where I gave a talk on transgender issues and
> > Wikipedia.[1]
> > >> I'm posting because there's an active discussion in Wikipedia Weekly
> on
> > >> Facebook about choosing a host country for Wikimania 2018.[2] I am
> > >> concerned that some of the suggestions are not taking into account the
> > >> safety of LGBT+ people; not just those attending the conference, but
> > also
> > >> those living in the host country.
> > >>
> > >> As a queer trans atheist in a same-sex marriage, there are a number of
> > >> places where I am considered a criminal for just existing or going
> > about my
> > >> daily routine. This applies to some parts of the U.S. as well, by the
> > way;
> > >> I won't be visiting North Carolina as long as it's illegal for me to
> use
> > >> the men's restroom there. Please keep these considerations in mind
> when
> > >> planning meetups and conferences. Thank you.
> > >>
> > >> - Pax aka Funcrunch
> > >>
> > >> [1] http://funcrunch.org/blog/2016/10/12/making-connections-at-
> > >> wikiconference-north-america/
> > >>
> > >> [2] https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/
> > >> 1114259788621851/
> > >>
> > >
> > > - Pax
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 11/10/16 12:00 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hoi,
> > >> You do not get it. Wikimania is first and foremost about spreading the
> > >> word
> > >> about what we do and who we are.
> > >>
> > >> I have read Pax's original post. He did not go to Wikimania. He asks
> for
> > >> consideration that any Wikimania will be in a place where he feels
> safe.
> > >> It
> > >> is OK for him to ask this but it is not OK for us to give away what
> > >> Wikimania stands for.
> > >>
> > >> There is no safe place and in my experience you are offensive by not
> > >> accepting that this is the point that I make. There is no perfect
> place
> > >> for
> > >> Wikimania. Everywhere and always you have to behave yourself cognisant
> > of
> > >> where you are. At all times there is one or the other group that will
> be
> > >> discriminated against.
> > >>
> > >> Fae, muslims are at a greater risk than LGBT people when they come to
> a
> > >> conference. Particularly women who wear a hijab will always be seen
> for
> > >> what they are. It is not a lie that you do not address the point that
> I
> > >> make. The question is why do we have a Wikimania and is it an
> instrument
> > >> to
> > >> open up new communities and include them in our movement.
> > >>
> > >> This is the dominant question that should be answered. Relative safety
> > is
> > >> secondary.
> > >> Thanks,
> > >> GerardM
> > >>
> > >> On 10 November 2016 at 08:46, Fæ <fae...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Gerard,
> > >>>
> > >>> Yes you are being offensive. You are deliberately painting a picture
> > >>> that somehow Pax, myself and others are attempting to make out that
> > >>> safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians is more important than safety of Women
> > >>> Wikimedians or the safety of Muslim Wikimedians. The only person
> doing
> > >>> that is you.
> > >>>
> > >>> You did the same thing on the 18th of October and it was pointed out
> > >>> to you that this was unacceptable, yet you are continuing to repeat
> > >>> it. Stop doing it, it is a lie, and the only person spreading it is
> > you.
> > >>>
> > >>> Go back and read Pax's original post of 16th October which was
> positive
> > >>> about the Wikimania experience.
> > >>>
> > >>> Fae
> > >>>
> > >>> On 10 November 2016 at 06:57, Gerard Meijssen <
> > gerard.meijs...@gmail.com
> > >>> >
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> Hoi,
> > >>>> The notion of offence is one where you take it where there is none
> > >>>> certainly no offence is intended.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> When you consider Wikimanias past, we have been to places where
> there
> > is
> > >>>>
> > >>> a
> > >>>
> > >>>> "risk". Arguably there has been a risk in going to other countries
> in
> > >>>> the
> > >>>> past. When you consider the events themselves, as a group, we have
> > been
> > >>>> rather isolated in our conference. Many people were exhausted of the
> > >>>> proceedings. Others went partying and came to the conference when
> they
> > >>>>
> > >>> felt
> > >>>
> > >>>> up to it.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> This whole notion of security has been high jacked by LGBT concerns.
> > Let
> > >>>>
> > >>> me
> > >>>
> > >>>> say that they are real. It would however be a travesty to say that
> > they
> > >>>>
> > >>> are
> > >>>
> > >>>> the only ones singled out for problems. Ask yourself, how many women
> > >>>> wearing a veil were there at the last Wikimania and at the one
> before.
> > >>>> Consider the stories about people, third generation Dutch, who are
> > >>>>
> > >>> mistaken
> > >>>
> > >>>> for refugees and not safe in the streets of the place where I live.
> > >>>>
> > >>> Stories
> > >>>
> > >>>> about not standing close to the gap at a railway station because ...
> > >>>> They
> > >>>> are as much a reality, they are as real.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> So you may find it offensive and it is. People are not safe. But
> when
> > >>>>
> > >>> that
> > >>>
> > >>>> stops us from talking about it, when it can not be said that
> security
> > is
> > >>>> only one concern and not the most dominant one then I take offence.
> It
> > >>>> means that we can no longer exchange opinions. It means that we are
> > only
> > >>>> concerned with our own narrow interest losing the big picture.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> So Fae, take it from me. You are wrong to call me out for being
> > >>>> disrespectful. By calling me out in this way you elevate your
> opinion
> > >>>> and
> > >>>> put me down. Security is a concern but when fear is exchanged for
> > >>>>
> > >>> prudence,
> > >>>
> > >>>> we will remove the one reason why we have Wikimania in the first
> place
> > >>>>
> > >>> as a
> > >>>
> > >>>> worldwide conference. It is to go out and show the world who we are
> > and
> > >>>> what we have to offer.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> When this is the prevailing opinion of our movement it does hardly
> > >>>> matter
> > >>>> that we have Wikipedias in over 280 languages because English and
> its
> > >>>> culture is the only Wikipedia that counts. Now that is effectively
> an
> > >>>> existing prejudice that is dominated in much of what I observe we
> do.
> > It
> > >>>>
> > >>> is
> > >>>
> > >>>> another argument people feel offended. But hey most of you do not
> see
> > it
> > >>>> this way because "things trickle down".. As an economic measure it
> > >>>> failed
> > >>>> and it is how we ignore the major cultural differences that exist.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Wikimania is not relevant when we do not go out and mingle world
> wide.
> > >>>>
> > >>> When
> > >>>
> > >>>> we do not accept the differences that exist and make it our
> strength.
> > >>>> Thanks,
> > >>>> GerardM
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On 9 November 2016 at 18:28, Fæ <fae...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Gerard,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> You have posted several emails on the subject which read as
> > >>>>> disrespectful, can cause offence and discourage LGBT+ contributors
> to
> > >>>>> this list who may have otherwise openly expressed views. The line
> of
> > >>>>> argument that LGBT+ Wikimedians must expect to be at personal risk
> > >>>>> just to attend a Wikimania is repugnant to me, and is likely to be
> > for
> > >>>>> a majority of other readers. This point of view runs counter to the
> > >>>>> values of the WMF or recognized affiliates.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> If you wish to develop a better understanding of how the basic
> safety
> > >>>>> of all attendees at future Wikimanias and other conferences should
> be
> > >>>>> a priority, this may be better done on-wiki rather than repeating
> > your
> > >>>>> points on this list.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I warmly recommend a reality check with friends off-list as to what
> > >>>>> might be read as offensive, should you wish to continue posting
> > >>>>> further emails about this particular topic.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Thanks,
> > >>>>> Fae
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> On 9 November 2016 at 16:43, Gerard Meijssen <
> > >>>>> gerard.meijs...@gmail.com
> > >>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> Hoi,
> > >>>>>> What is the point. When not even the USA is "safe", we have to be
> > >>>>>> realistic. Wikimania is about propaganda for what we do. We have
> to
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> travel
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> and selecting a place is not about you, it is about them. It is
> > about
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> the
> > >>>
> > >>>> people we aim to serve.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I made my point before, it did not get any attention then and my
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> argument
> > >>>
> > >>>> now is that nothing changed. It is only the perception of the USA
> that
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> has
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> been dented by an unfortunate "democratic" choice by last night's
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> election.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> Thanks,
> > >>>>>> GerardM
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> On 9 November 2016 at 17:27, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> list-wikime...@funcrunch.org
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>> Gerard, as a queer black trans person who feels unsafe even in
> San
> > >>>>>>> Francisco (and has felt that way for years), I would really
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>> appreciate
> > >>>
> > >>>> you
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> not pushing last night's election results in my face to make a
> > point.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> - Pax
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On 11/9/16 8:24 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Hoi,
> > >>>>>>>> Do you blame me for not feeling safe going to the USA?
> > >>>>>>>> Thanks,
> > >>>>>>>> GerardM
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> On 8 November 2016 at 11:08, Gerard Meijssen <
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> gerard.meijs...@gmail.com>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Hoi,
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Not going to North Corolina is absolutely fine with me. We do
> not
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> gain
> > >>>
> > >>>> anything by going there arguably not to any state in the United
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> States.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> What Wikimania is, is a platform for propaganda for what we have,
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> what we
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> do, who we are and how we do what we do. In many countries
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Wikipedia
> > >>>
> > >>>> is
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> not
> > >>>>>>>>> the house hold name it is in the USA.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Wikimania is not aimed for the English Wikipedia, it is aimed
> to
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> further
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> our movement. Not going to places is similar to saying that those
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> other
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> people, speaking other languages, with an other culture do not
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> matter.
> > >>>
> > >>>> They
> > >>>>>>>>> do.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> We should go to Russia, India, South Africa, China. The people
> of
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> those
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> countries should matter to us, the people we could share the sum
> of
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> all
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> knowledge with.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> THAT is what we do, sharing the sum of all knowledge.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> When the choice of the venue is only about being safe, we
> should
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> not
> > >>>
> > >>>> go
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> to
> > >>>>>>>>> the USA (I do not feel safe there), we should go to Germany, to
> > >>>>>>>>> Switzerland
> > >>>>>>>>> and move the office as well. It is not likely to happen, not
> > what I
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> want
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> either.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> If there is one thing about LBGT, it is that that struggle is
> > still
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> being
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> fought. Hiding and keeping away does not work. It does not help
> the
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> LBGT
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> community. More importantly in this context it does not help the
> > >>>>>>>>> Wikimedia
> > >>>>>>>>> community. For the latter it is vital to make our message
> > heard.We
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> aim to
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> share the sum of all knowledge and many people have not even heard
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> of
> > >>>
> > >>>> us.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> Thank,
> > >>>>>>>>> GerardM
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 16:00, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <
> > >>>>>>>>> list-wikime...@funcrunch.org> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Gerard, this isn't about "holiday destinations", it's about
> human
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> rights
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> and dignity. That's why I emphasized in my original post that I'm
> > >>>>>>>>>> concerned
> > >>>>>>>>>> not only about the safety of conference attendees, but also
> > about
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> those
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> living in the host country. The choice of a venue in a location
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> with
> > >>>
> > >>>> a
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> poor
> > >>>>>>>>>> human rights record reflects poorly upon Wikipedia/Wikimedia
> and
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> our
> > >>>
> > >>>> mission to share knowledge. There's a reason a number of major
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> companies
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> pulled their events and funding out of North Carolina after the
> > >>>>>>>>>> restrictive
> > >>>>>>>>>> restroom laws were passed for example...
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> - Pax
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> On 10/18/16 6:26 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Hoi,
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> For me safety is to a large extend secondary to what we aim
> to
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> achieve.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> Our
> > >>>>>>>>>>> primary goal is to improve on our primary goal and it is
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> "sharing in
> > >>>
> > >>>> the
> > >>>>>>>>>>> sum of all knowledge". It is not for going to the perfect
> > holiday
> > >>>>>>>>>>> destination.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
> > >>>>>>>>>>> GerardM
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 13:56, Fæ <fae...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Gerard, could you provide some tangible examples of how other
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> safety
> > >>>
> > >>>> aspects of Wikimania would be compromised if there is any
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> specific
> > >>>
> > >>>> attention paid to the safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians? I cannot
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> imagine
> > >>>
> > >>>> how such a thing could be true.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Based on my reading, nobody in this thread has asked for the
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> safety of
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> LGBT+ attendees to be "prioritized" over other safety aspects.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Please
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> don't make it appear as if they have.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Fae
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 11:42, Gerard Meijssen <
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> gerard.meijs...@gmail.com
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Hoi,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> I do care that everybody can come to places where they are
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> safe.
> > >>>
> > >>>> All
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> the
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> problematic
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> picture
> > >>>
> > >>>> for
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> me
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia
> and
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> what
> > >>>
> > >>>> it
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> stands
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China
> to
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> India
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> to
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> South Africa.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/User:Fae
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > --
> > > Pax Ahimsa Gethen | http://funcrunch.org
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > GN.
> > President Wikimedia Australia
> > WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> > Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
> > _______________________________________________
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