The problem of knowledge is much older than Wikipedia. It is part of the reason that so many intelligent people belive things that are "simply not so".
On 11 Aug 2017 11:52, "Rogol Domedonfors" <domedonf...@gmail.com> wrote: > Is it not rather late to be discussing what "knowledge" might be, towards > the end of the second decade of a mission to bring the sum of human > knowledge to the world, and in the middle of a major effort to determine > the strategy of the movement into its third and fourth decades? Surely by > now there is a clear, concise and actionable agreed definition of knowledge > that we can point to when people ask what all that money has been and > continues to be raised for? Why not just point to that common position > that everyone has signed up to? > > "Rogol" > > On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 1:00 PM, John Erling Blad <jeb...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > Information is "facts told, heard, or discovered" (Oxford) or "knowledge > > communicated or received concerning a particular fact or circumstance". > (I > > would say data and not knowledge, but knowledge is good enough for this.) > > If you can't observe the fact or circumstance, and can't communicate the > > fact, how can there be the information? > > > > Sorry, this does not make sense. > > > > On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 2:08 AM, Gnangarra <gnanga...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Verifiability can be very different. For example oral sources > > > > > > > > > very agree, the intangible sources are a really challenge to way you > > look > > > at verifiability. Not only are wanting to gather the information and > make > > > it possible for others to also access it the very nature of the sources > > is > > > dynamic and fragile bringing them into a tangible format risks the > > > continuation of knowledge gained, a kin to exposing an ancient paper > > source > > > to intense UV light. > > > > > > There is a lot of fantastic work going on around the world on how to > > > "Europeanise" knowledge without destroying it . All of this gets more > > > complex when you learn that knowledge isnt just a few words its part > of a > > > multidimensional connection to and in time, place, and circumstances > by > > > bringing it into a one dimensional world like Wikipedia is in it self > > > changing the very nature of the knowledge. If our goal is to collect > > the > > > sum of all knowledge then we need to be free as communities to address > > the > > > uniqueness of the knowledge we seek within the bounds of > > culture(language) > > > from which it originates > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9 August 2017 at 04:12, Jean-Philippe Béland <jpbel...@wikimedia.ca > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Verifiability can be very different. For example oral sources. > > > > > > > > JP > > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 8, 2017, 05:20 John Erling Blad, <jeb...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Policy should not have local variations, unless you want to create > > > > > something different from Wikipedia. This is about core content > > > policies. > > > > > Those are no original research, verifiability, and neutral point of > > > view. > > > > > The one most don't follow is neutral point of view, where projects > > > > rewrite > > > > > world history to focus on their own local view. > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 2:20 AM, Gnangarra <gnanga...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > its the cultural differences that influence the policy, so who's > > > > culture > > > > > is > > > > > > more significant than everyone elses that will dictate the > > policies. > > > > > > > > > > > > On 8 August 2017 at 08:14, John Erling Blad <jeb...@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes there are cultural differences between wikipedias on > > _content_, > > > > but > > > > > > > there should be no differences on _policy_ about that content. > > > > > > > Note also that there are some differences on use of _facts_ > that > > > are > > > > > > highly > > > > > > > troublesome, and that comes from relaxed core policies. > > > > > > > Armenian genocide for example. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 3:48 PM, Gnangarra <gnanga...@gmail.com > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to quote, worth a read before even considering policies being > > > > global > > > > > > > > http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/asi.23901/ > abstract > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This article explores the relationship between linguistic > > culture > > > > and > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > preferred standards of presenting information based on > > article > > > > > > > > > representation in major Wikipedias. Using primary research > > > > analysis > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > number of images, references, internal links, external > links, > > > > > words, > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > characters, as well as their proportions in Good and > Featured > > > > > > articles > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > the eight largest Wikipedias, we discover a high diversity > of > > > > > > > approaches > > > > > > > > > and format preferences, correlating with culture. We > > > demonstrate > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > high-quality standards in information presentation are not > > > > globally > > > > > > > > shared > > > > > > > > > and that in many aspects, the language culture's influence > > > > > determines > > > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > > is perceived to be proper, desirable, and exemplary for > > > > > encyclopedic > > > > > > > > > entries. As a result, we demonstrate that standards for > > > > > encyclopedic > > > > > > > > > knowledge are not globally agreed-upon and “objective” but > > > local > > > > > and > > > > > > > very > > > > > > > > > subjective. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 4 August 2017 at 10:18, Ziko van Dijk <zvand...@gmail.com > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The number of pillars depends on the language version... > > > > > > > > > And whether some rules is called pilöar not dpes not seem > to > > be > > > > pf > > > > > > much > > > > > > > > > importance > > > > > > > > > Ziko > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John Erling Blad <jeb...@gmail.com> schrieb am Do. 3. Aug. > > > 2017 > > > > um > > > > > > > > 14:42: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Five pillars are moot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 2:59 PM, Gnangarra < > > > gnanga...@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The moment you have a centralised policy you take away > > the > > > > > > ability > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > discuss, makes decisions, and achieve consensus from > the > > > > > > community > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > create the projects. Importantly you create the > > opportunity > > > > for > > > > > > > > banned > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > blocked editors to decide what happens in a community. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By having a base set of simple policies in the > Incubator > > > that > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > atuomatically created when a project starts up you give > > > them > > > > > the > > > > > > > best > > > > > > > > > > guide > > > > > > > > > > > to establishing themselves well before that project > goes > > > > live, > > > > > > > ince a > > > > > > > > > > > project is live it has to be allowed to develop its > > > > community. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We already have the 5 pillars which are the basis for > the > > > > > > projects, > > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > > > > meta is not a place that the content creating community > > > > spends > > > > > a > > > > > > > lot > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3 August 2017 at 19:07, John Erling Blad < > > > > jeb...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Having centralized core policies would lessen the > > > > maintenance > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > process, > > > > > > > > > > > > not increase them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 11:17 AM, Strainu < > > > > > strain...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The core policies should be the ones pushed by > board > > > > > > > resolution, > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > those should be the absolute minimum required to > keep > > > the > > > > > > > > projects > > > > > > > > > > > > > safe from a legal POV. Period. Otherwise, people > with > > > > > little > > > > > > > > > > > > > understanding of small Wikipedias will try to push > > > stuff > > > > > from > > > > > > > > > en.wp. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just recently someone was trying to have an RFC on > > meta > > > > on > > > > > > all > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > different processes that en.wp has and ro.wp does > not > > > > have, > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > > > > little consideration on whether the manpower to > > > > implement, > > > > > > let > > > > > > > > > alone > > > > > > > > > > > > > maintain, these processes exists. No thank you to > > rule > > > > > > pushing > > > > > > > > > > without > > > > > > > > > > > > > local context. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Having a community take a rule from en.wp is > > different, > > > > > just > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > long > > > > > > > > > > > > > as some kind of discussion happens within the > > community > > > > > about > > > > > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > Even > > > > > > > > > > > > > if the rule is really useless or harmful and the > > > > community > > > > > > did > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > > > realize that in the beginning, at least it can > evolve > > > > > > > differently > > > > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > > > > > > the English one. Have a centralized repository and > > > trying > > > > > to > > > > > > > > change > > > > > > > > > > > > > the rules there by consensus would be much more > > > difficult > > > > > for > > > > > > > > small > > > > > > > > > > > > > communities. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Strainu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2017-08-02 17:05 GMT+03:00 John Erling Blad < > > > > > > jeb...@gmail.com > > > > > > > >: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nearly all Wikipedia projects has virtually the > > same > > > > core > > > > > > > > content > > > > > > > > > > > > > policies, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but with slightly different wording. Nearly all, > > > > because > > > > > a > > > > > > > lot > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > smaller lacks them, and a lot has outdated or > only > > > > > partial > > > > > > > > > > policies. > > > > > > > > > > > It > > > > > > > > > > > > > > takes a lot of time to actually make them and > keep > > > them > > > > > > > > updated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Creating and maintaining the core content > policies > > > > should > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > > > > > something > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that small projects should invest a lot of time > in, > > > > they > > > > > > > should > > > > > > > > > > > simply > > > > > > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > able to point to existing policies on Meta. The > > > central > > > > > > > > policies > > > > > > > > > > > should > > > > > > > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > localized if necessary. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Checking Meta I find > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > > > > wiki/The_no_original_research_ > > > > > > > > > policy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > > wiki/Neutral_point_of_view > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can't find anything like "Verifiability". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would it be possible for Wikimedia Foundation to > > make > > > > > some > > > > > > > > sound > > > > > > > > > > > > baseline > > > > > > > > > > > > > > policies, and with the option for local projects > to > > > > > refine > > > > > > > > those? > > > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with assistance from editors on Wikipedia? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lets try to make the policies accurate, without > "no > > > > > > original > > > > > > > > > > > research" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > diverging into verifiability of external sources. > > It > > > > > should > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > > about > > > > > > > > > > > > > > original research in content on Wikipedia. > > Likewise, > > > at > > > > > > some > > > > > > > > > > projects > > > > > > > > > > > > > > neutral point of view has become "do not diverge > > from > > > > > > > creators > > > > > > > > > > point > > > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > view"… > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would this be possible? It would be really nice > if > > > > those > > > > > > > > baseline > > > > > > > > > > > > > policies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pages could be copied to the individual projects > > like > > > > > > central > > > > > > > > > user > > > > > > > > > > > > pages, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so they would be "internal" to the projects. Thus > > the > > > > > > > projects > > > > > > > > > > would > > > > > > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > > > > > more "ownership" of them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same thing apply to other meta projects > > > (Wikipedia, > > > > > > > > > Wikibooks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wiktionary, etc). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jeblad > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > > > > > > > > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > > > > > > > > > > > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > > > > > > > > > > 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<mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject= > unsubscribe> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > GN. > > > President Wikimedia Australia > > > WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra > > > Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > 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