Peter Thank you for raising that issue. Since user Peter Southwood has just one recorded edit on English Wikipedia, from 2012, (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Peter_Southwood) I'm puzzled by your speaking on behalf of the volunteer community. ("we do not generally appreciate pontification from outsiders")
Thrapostibongles On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 2:53 PM Peter Southwood < peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote: > Thrapostibongles, > I am not familiar with your name on enwiki, so I looked you up, and find > that you have a grand total of 11 edits on all projects since 2015. > While it is possible that you have a long and distinguished edit history > under a previous name or as an IP editor, it leads me to wonder just how > familiar you are with the customs and culture of enwiki, which I freely > agree are non-optimal, but have evolved to sort of work in an environment > which was predicted to be impossible. Yet here we are, dysfunctionally > surviving when we are theoretically long extinct. Our dysfunctional mores > function as they do and evolve through surviving and occasional > modification by consensus of those who care enough to take part in the > process, within the environment in which we work. We are somewhere between > an anarchy and a community, and we do not generally appreciate > pontification from outsiders, which is what you appear to be, and to a > large extent, what we consider WMF to be. It is a problem. If WMF chooses > to rule by fiat it will have interesting consequences. So far they have > mostly avoided that, and when they have it has not ended well. If you > consider yourself an expert in something relevant I invite you to show > evidence of your credentials. Otherwise we will take your comments as we do > those of any other unproven internet commentator. > This is just my personal take, I do not presume to represent anyone else. > You are as free to ignore me as I am to ignore you, but engaging in this > discussion has its consequences, and one of them is to be questioned. > Cheers, > Peter Southwood > > -----Original Message----- > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On > Behalf Of Mister Thrapostibongles > Sent: 12 June 2019 09:06 > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block > > Yaroslav, > > I think it's reasonably clear that the English Wikipedia community and its > community structures, such as its Arbitration Committee, and processes are > not capable of maintaining a productive, harassment-free environment for > the volunteer workers. For example, they have consistently failed, after > several attempts, to handle the case of a volunteer who used the word > "Cxxx" about a fellow worker, and the community has agreed that telling > others to "Fxxx off" is acceptable. These are symptoms of a dysfunctional > community, which tolerates behaviour that is unacceptable in any collegial > working environment, and it is right that the Foundation should step in. > > Thrapostibongles > > On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 4:56 PM Yaroslav Blanter <ymb...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > The point made by pretty much everyone is not that Fram should or should > > not be banned, but that the process in this case should have followed the > > standard dispute resolution avenues, More specifically, the case should > > have been communicated to the Arbitration Committee, whose members did > sign > > the non-disclosure agreement. > > > > This is different from the past cases when users were banned by WMF, > since > > in this case it was made clear the case is based on on-wiki open activity > > of Fram (and, specifically, only on the English Wikipedia). The on-wiki > > activity is subject to the community policies. > > > > To be clear, I am not a friend of Fram, and in the past supported desysop > > on a number of occasions. > > > > Cheers > > Yaroslav > > > > On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 5:46 PM Amir Sarabadani <ladsgr...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > People who oppose the ban: Are you aware of all aspects and things Fram > > has > > > done? Do you have the full picture? It's really saddening to see how > fast > > > people jump to conclusion in page mentioned in the email. I personally, > > > don't know what happened so I neither can support or oppose the ban. As > > > simple as that. > > > > > > So what should be done IMO. If enwiki wants to know more, a community > > body > > > can ask for more information, if body satisfy two things: > > > - They had signed NDA not to disclose the case > > > - They are trusted by the community > > > > > > I think the only body can sorta work with this is stewards but not sure > > > (Does ArbCom NDA'ed?) > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 3:58 PM Paulo Santos Perneta < > > > paulospern...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Lack of transparency from the WMF, whatelse is new. > > > > I'm currently under a funding ban secretly decided (by who?) based > on a > > > > false accusation, without providing any evidence. Until now I'm > waiting > > > for > > > > an explanation from the WMF. So, this sort of attitude doesn't > surprise > > > me > > > > at all. > > > > It is very unfortunate that the WMF apparently thrives in this kind > of > > > > medieval obscurity, the opposite of the values of the Wikimedia > > Movement. > > > > Matter for Roles & Reponsibilities. > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > Paulo > > > > > > > > > > > > Benjamin Ikuta <benjaminik...@gmail.com> escreveu no dia terça, > > > 11/06/2019 > > > > à(s) 05:45: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for this. > > > > > > > > > > I'm glad to see I'm not the only one dismayed by the unilateralism > > and > > > > > lack of transparency. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jun 10, 2019, at 8:25 PM, Techman224 <techman...@techman224.ca> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Forwarding to WIkimedia-l since WikiEN-l is relatively dead. > > > > > > > > > > > > Since this message, an Arbcom member (SilkTork) stated that they > > > > weren't > > > > > consulted, nor did this action was the result of Arbcom forwarding > a > > > > > concern to the office. [1] > > > > > > > > > > > > The only non-response excuse from the WMF [2] was that "local > > > > > communities consistently struggle to uphold not just their own > > > autonomous > > > > > rules but the Terms of Use, too.” even though there were no > > complaints > > > > > on-wiki nor to Arbcom privately. > > > > > > > > > > > > The on-wiki discussion is taking place at the Bureaucrats and the > > > > Arbcom > > > > > noticeboards. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats%27_noticeboard#User:Fram_banned_for_1_year_by_WMF_office > > > > > < > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats'_noticeboard#User:Fram_banned_for_1_year_by_WMF_office > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard#Request_for_ArbCom_to_comment_publicly_on_Fram's_ban > > > > > > > > > > > > [1] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=901300528 > > > > > < > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=901300528 > > > > > > > > > > > > [2] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats%27_noticeboard#Statement_from_the_WMF_Trust_&_Safety_Team > > > > > > > > > > > > Techman224 > > > > > > > > > > > >> Begin forwarded message: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> From: George Herbert <george.herb...@gmail.com> > > > > > >> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block > > > > > >> Date: June 10, 2019 at 8:54:34 PM CDT > > > > > >> To: English Wikipedia <wikie...@lists.wikimedia.org> > > > > > >> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikie...@lists.wikimedia.org> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> In case you're not following on-wiki - Office S&T blocked > English > > > > > Wikipedia > > > > > >> user / administrator Fram for a year and desysopped, for > > unspecified > > > > > >> reasons in the Office purview. There was a brief statement here > > > from > > > > > >> Office regarding it which gave no details other than that normal > > > > policy > > > > > and > > > > > >> procedures for Office actions were followed, which under normal > > > > > >> circumstances preclude public comments. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats%27_noticeboard#User:Fram_banned_for_1_year_by_WMF_office > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Several people on Arbcom and board have commented they're making > > > > private > > > > > >> inquiries under normal reporting and communication channels, due > > to > > > > the > > > > > >> oddity and essentially uniqueness of the action. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> There was an initial surge of dismay which has mellowed IMHO > into > > > "Ok, > > > > > >> responsible people following up". > > > > > >> > > > > > >> I understand the sensitivity of some of the topics under Office > > > > actions, > > > > > >> having done OTRS and other various had-to-stay-private stuff > > myself > > > at > > > > > >> times in the past. A high profile investigation target is most > > > > unusual > > > > > but > > > > > >> not unheard of. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> I did send email to Fram earlier today asking if they had any > > public > > > > > >> comment, no reply as yet. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> -- > > > > > >> -george william herbert > > > > > >> george.herb...@gmail.com > > > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > > > >> WikiEN-l mailing list > > > > > >> wikie...@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > > >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: > > > > > >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > > > Unsubscribe: > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org > ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > > Unsubscribe: > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org > ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > Unsubscribe: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Amir (he/him) > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. > https://www.avg.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
